Ask the Collective
The questions independent drinks founders ask most — answered. Distilled from years of community knowledge so the good stuff never disappears in the feed again.
What business banking solutions work best for UK drinks founders, and how do you navigate account opening?
Members recommend a two-bank approach: pairing an online-first bank with a high street option for security and broader services. Starling is widely praised for ease of setup, modern app experience, strong Xero integration, receipt tracking via company cards, and recently increased deposit insurance (£85k). HSBC Kinetic was highlighted as quick to set up with modern app features plus overdraft facilities. Wise is recommended specifically if you trade in multiple currencies. However, members note that online banks have limitations: Starling's company card requires naming a person of significant control at Companies House, which can restrict team access; they also offer less depth in financing services like invoice finance and FX hedging compared to traditional banks. For new company account openings, members reported frustration with recent rejections and lengthy timelines (3–4 months previously reported with Barclays). Lloyds was suggested as the most straightforward high street option. The consensus is that traditional banks offer broader financing options and better one-to-one relationship support, but are less flexible operationally—so the choice depends on your specific needs: if you need speed and modern UX plus basic functionality, go online-first and add a high street bank for lending and FX services; if you need serious lending or hedging options, start with a traditional bank despite slower setup.
What are the best bars and venues in London to take industry contacts to experience current drinks scene trends?
Members consistently recommend several venues as top choices for entertaining industry contacts. For cutting-edge, newer venues: Kwant (recently won best bar food at CLASS awards), Coupette in Soho (known for small plates and interesting tasting-size cocktails), Cavita's downstairs bar concept (consulted by Mr Lyan, features DJ, small mezcal den vibe), and Dram are popular. For established classics with strong credentials: Three Sheets Soho, Swift Soho, Satan's Whiskers, Thin White Duke, Chiltern Firehouse, Connaught, and Claridges. Members also mention Mr Foggs Apothecary, Murder Inc (central), Soma, Duke's, and Scarfes. Swift Soho requires booking and has a strict door policy even with reservations; walk-ins are typically not accepted. Three Sheets is described as worth the trek despite being slightly out of the way. Coupette allows you to work through the menu with tasting-size cocktails but note the cost. For food, Swift has minimal options but Murder Inc's nachos are noted as outstanding, and Kwant is specifically recognised for bar food quality.
Which trade shows and food/drink expos deliver the best ROI for spirits and premium drinks brands?
Members' experience with major consumer shows is mixed and heavily dependent on brand positioning and price point. BBC Good Food Show attracts a broad demographic that skews toward lower price-point, sweeter products rather than premium spirits—one member reported getting repeatedly asked if lemonade could be added to their product. Volumes can be decent (one wine importer reported £22K sales in Birmingham), but pitch fees are described as "eye watering" and ROI is often poor for premium brands. Pimentae found decent volumes but the wrong customer demographic; Shanky's Whip moved 900 bottles at £25 each (on promotion at £20), though this required heavy discounting. Members recommend premium spirit producers "stay well clear" due to oversaturation of spirits brands making it hard to stand out. The Atom food and beverage conference (held at Doncaster Racecourse) attracts good numbers of retail buyers but delivery is inconsistent—one attendee found it well-run with solid contacts, while another reported poor organisation and significant buyer no-shows. Members suggest evaluating any show based on whether the attending buyer demographic aligns with your brand's retail price positioning and target market, rather than assuming volume = success.
Who are the key buyer contacts at major UK retail chains, and how do I reach them?
Members have shared specific contacts for several major retailers. At Master of Malt, Chris Wood (Chris.Wood@masterofmalt.com) handles spirits listings. At Ocado, Catherine Street is the spirits buyer and Georgiana Cazan handles soft drinks; members note LinkedIn is a useful source to identify current buyers and determine email formats. At Waitrose, JV (initials only in discussion) handles RTD and spirits categories. At Wholefoods, Alice Fishman was previously listed as spirits and soft drinks buyer, though members report significant difficulty reaching her despite multiple outreach attempts. Members emphasise that buyer contacts frequently change roles and many are difficult to reach via email; using LinkedIn to identify current staff and following up with direct contact attempts is the typical approach. The community advises that persistence may be needed but notes frustration with unresponsive buyers.
What are the UK regulations on bottle fill tolerances and declared volumes for duty and trading standards purposes?
Fill tolerance in the UK is split between two regulators. HMRC allows a 5% tolerance on duty calculations, which applies to the litres of pure alcohol (LPA) declared—there is no tolerance on the duty itself, only on allowable losses in production. Trading standards and local authorities enforce weights and measures under packaged goods regulations via gov.uk/weights-measures-and-packaging-the-law/packaged-goods. The key distinction is whether you pack to a minimum or an average: if you declare a minimum (e.g. "70cl minimum"), you cannot go under that figure; if you pack to average (marked with an epsilon symbol €), there is a tolerance up and down. However, if you knowingly overfill beyond the stated volume, you cannot claim tolerance—you must keep records of your fill process. Some members have successfully used 75cl bottles underfilled to 70cl equivalent for UK sale without issues from trading standards, provided filling records are maintained and inspections have cleared them. Industry data suggests beer has tighter tolerances (around 0.5%) and spirits around 0.3%, though these appear to be best-practice rather than hard regulatory ceilings.
What payment processors and card readers do members recommend for UK drinks businesses selling online and offline?
Members recommend several options depending on your transaction volume and setup needs: **Zettle** is a popular choice for card readers. It offers tiered transaction fees that decrease with volume, integrates easily with accounting platforms (Xero, QuickBooks, Sage), fast delivery, and quick payment settlement. The reporting is solid. **Square** is recommended for businesses with low monthly transaction volume and no monthly fees. Transaction fees are around 1.75%, with a card reader available for around £20. You can accept card payments over the phone, online, and via their free website option. **Stripe** works well linked to invoicing and accounting software. Standard UK online charge is 1.4% when using Shopify Payments. **Tyl from NatWest** has very low fees and has saved members money compared to previous solutions, though you may need a NatWest business account. **WorldPay** offers much lower transaction fees than Square but charges monthly fees, so it's better suited to higher-volume traders. Members also mention **SumUp** as a working option. For event/POS sales, Square is noted as particularly easy to set up quickly. One member mentioned using both Stripe and Square together works well.
What inventory management software should small drinks brands use for batch/serial numbers, stock tracking, and ingredient management?
Members recommend several options depending on budget and complexity. **Unleashed** is praised for accuracy, especially with multiple ingredients and component parts, and integrates with Xero and Sage, though it's expensive. **Breww** (£175/month average) is a popular cost-effective alternative—volume-based pricing, includes basic CRM, 1% trade store commission, integrates with Xero, has a deliveries system, and strong support. Members use it successfully beyond brewing (e.g., for syrup production) without needing additional staff. **Workhorse** and **Brewman** are also mentioned as cheaper options. For larger operations, **SAP B1** (cloud-based) and **Oracle NetSuite** integrate well with other systems. Members strongly advise against using Xero alone for stock control—it becomes painful beyond small production runs with few SKUs. The consensus is to commit to one system, as they take time to learn but become reliable once embedded.
Where can members source reliable packaging suppliers for spirits bottles, boxes, and branded materials?
Members recommend several established packaging suppliers. For outer boxes and cartons: Playford Packaging (contact Sharon Haddock at Sales@playfordpackaging.co.uk) and Box and Seal Ltd (Gareth Crockatt, 01793 855855, Gareth@boxandseal.co.uk) are noted as quick and reasonably priced; DS Smith is cheaper long-term but slower with approvals. Saxon Packaging (www.saxonpackaging.co.uk) is used for 4-pack retail boxes and branded multipacks, though some members explore alternatives. For gift bags and branded paper carriers: Stevenage Packaging (https://www.stevenagepackaging.co.uk, contact Adam) offers bespoke light brown bags quickly at reasonable cost. Rocaba Packaging (rocabapackaging.co.uk) supplies Italian brown paper bags with twisted handles from 24p each for orders of 300+, reportedly strong enough for 70cl bottles (2.4kg). Members emphasise checking samples first, as quality can vary. For urgent 6-bottle carton needs, members also recommend checking availability directly with suppliers rather than waiting for standard lead times.
What are the best couriers and strategies for shipping alcohol samples internationally, and how do you handle distribution in regulated markets like Sweden?
For international sample shipping, members recommend FedEx as reliable and cost-effective; UPS should be avoided due to reported service failures. FedEx has been used successfully for shipments from Mexico to the UK and for non-alcoholic sample distribution worldwide. For EU markets with strict import regulations—particularly Sweden—direct-to-consumer shipping is not viable. Sweden requires that all alcohol imports be received by a registered alcohol importer with the Swedish tax authorities; gifts under 500 krona (£40) are an exception. The practical workaround is to partner with an established local importer-distributor who can buy and resell on to your end customer. Members have successfully used Herrljunga, Sweden's largest cider distributor (bigger than Kopparberg and Recorderlig), who also acts as an importer and may be willing to work on a consignment basis, with the brand shouldering currency and credit risk. This approach minimises regulatory risk for the importer and gets product to market.
Should duty be included or excluded from gross profit margin calculations in drinks business financial reporting?
The industry standard is to report gross profit margins on a Net Sales Value (NSV) basis, which excludes duty, VAT, and trade promotions from Gross Sales Value (GSV). This is how major drinks companies like Diageo structure their reporting. Duty should be treated as a separate line item rather than lumped into general COGS, allowing clearer visibility of actual margins and easier comparison between UK and export sales (where duty isn't paid). One member implemented a separate nominal code for duty in their accounting system specifically to isolate it from COGS, enabling brand and customer-level margin analysis. While financial accounts must include duty in turnover and COGS per accounting standards, management accounts can separate it out for analysis purposes. Members note this approach prevents duty rate changes artificially distorting apparent margins and gives a more accurate representation of operational performance. When raising capital, presenting margins on a gross sales (duty-inclusive) basis will damage credibility with industry-familiar investors. The practical challenge is that with multiple SKUs carrying different duty rates, systems need proper setup to automatically extract duty from GSV each month—members recommend examining Diageo's published chart of accounts as a template for structuring your own reporting framework.
Which trade shows deliver the best ROI for drinks brands: ProWein, Sial, Anuga, Berlin Cocktails, and Foodies Festivals?
ProWein has proven productive for members—one member noted strong returns from Seven Tails. Berlin Cocktails (BCB) is worth attending for meetings and networking with international distributors, but opinions on exhibiting vary: one member has maintained a stand since 2018 with great returns, while others found it overpriced, disorganised, and difficult to stand out alone. The show is most valuable for year-round partner reviews, meeting new distributors across multiple countries, and accessing industry networking events—less valuable if pursuing German domestic distribution. A collaborative Kindred stand was suggested as a way to solve visibility issues and create buzz. Foodies Festivals received consistently negative feedback on ROI. Members described them as expensive to exhibit at with no guaranteed footfall, attracting crowds primarily interested in free samples rather than brand engagement. One member lost money at Bristol Foodies (2023) but profited at Exeter thanks to higher-spending attendees and good weather. The consensus is to be highly selective, negotiate pitch fees aggressively, and avoid unless you can secure a discounted late-minute spot or identify a specific festival with proven higher-quality footfall in your category.
What CRM systems do drinks brands recommend, and what should we prioritize when choosing one?
Members recommend several CRM platforms suited to different company sizes. For smaller teams, Capsule is popular—straightforward, affordable, integrates with Outlook and Gmail, handles tasks and sales pipelines, and syncs with accounting software. Pipedrive at ELLC costs around £30 per head per month (basic package) and is user-friendly for tasks, deals tracking, and pipeline management with flexible user scaling. FreshSales is used at REAL and offers strong data output and reporting alongside pipeline management. For those using G-Suite in wholesale, Streak integrates well; for D2C brands, Klaviyo is recommended. HubSpot works well but success depends more on setup and design than features alone; integration with Mailchimp or similar marketing tools is important. Sales-I is noted as customisable with mobile real-time functionality at reasonable pricing. BrewMan works for some, with customisable sales pipelines. Larger enterprises considering Dynamics 365 should note it's typically justified only for teams of dozens or significant Microsoft budgets. Members stress that CRM effectiveness depends heavily on how you configure and use it rather than which platform you pick.
Where can short-run supplies of cans be sourced at short notice?
Members have successfully sourced short-run cans through specialist suppliers and contract packers, though lead times are often tight. Recommended contacts include: Home Canning (Allan, homecanningltd@gmail.com) — described as "older than old school" with an awful website but worth trying for emergency stock; Canit (Craig, Production@canit.co.uk), though they can be in and out of stock; and Premier Labellers (Matthew.gonzalez@premierlabellers.co.uk), who handle non-bonded stock at short runs. Bespoke Canners (robin@bespokecanners.com, contact Robin Hale) was recommended for can-sleeving work at short notice. Blue Frog was also suggested but members found them similarly constrained by long lead times (October+). For contract packing/sleeving, Blisters (blisters.ltd.uk) was praised though availability varies. Members noted that even specialist suppliers are often booked out months in advance in the current market; one member offering a pallet of 9k cans shows the community sometimes helps each other directly. Quantities as low as 6k have been requested successfully. Non-bonded stock appears acceptable if you're insured and comply with your insurance terms.
Where can members source packaging components (cardboard cases, cans, bottles, closures, cups) and what are typical pricing, MOQs and lead times?
Members source cardboard cases through Playford at approximately 30p per unbranded case plus 20p for inserts (4-colour print, double-walled board, suitable for courier); MOQ is typically 5,000 units. For cans, 250ml slim cans and 200ml cans are currently difficult to source; members recommend asking in the group as some hold stock. For small-quantity glass bottles, members work with Verallia/Allied in Leeds (contact Elle Prescott at fiona.prescott@verallia.co.uk, preferred over Nolan Kane who is slow). For 5cl PET/RPET bottles, members recommend Diamond, Future Pro, Hutch, and Fodabox; however, Future Pro reportedly has high prices. For custom corks and closures, members warn that Labrenta and Berlin have massive lead times (5–6 months); members are seeking alternatives but specific options are limited. For branded eco-friendly cups, members used Cupprint successfully. For urgent stock and specialist items (ROPP caps, bottle stoppers, closures), members recommend reaching out directly to the group as availability is unpredictable and lead times are often extended across suppliers. Logistics: standard 20ft containers hold 10 pallets of bottles. For EU/international shipments, use forwarders like Mannson who handle both Far East and European road freight and can advise on Brexit customs paperwork.
Which packaging suppliers do members recommend for cardboard, glass pitchers, SRP cans, bottles, and custom glassware?
For cardboard packaging, members recommend McFarlanes and Nuttall in Manchester as reliable suppliers with competitive pricing on larger orders. For glass pitchers (1.5–2L), members have found quotes hard to come by; one member asked for recommendations but no specific supplier was named in the discussion. For shelf-ready packaging (SRP) for 250ml cans in fully cardboard options, Smurfitt Kappa is the recommended supplier; contact Emma Bishop at emma.bishop@smurfitkappa.co.uk. For small-batch bottles (up to 10,000 units), no specific supplier was named, though one member offered to share contact details for a canner they use (Bottled and Canned in Devon). For custom branded glassware, RastalUK is recommended (Sales.rastaluk@gmail.com); they supplied branded hi-ball glasses at good value. Members also note that reliable packaging designers include Ben Prescot Design and White Rabbit for branding and label work, which complements supplier selection.
How do pasteurisation parameters affect the colour stability of natural fruit juice concentrates in RTD beverages, particularly red and pink tones?
Pasteurisation itself at standard parameters (e.g. 70°C for 15 minutes via tunnel) should not change product colour. However, natural red pigments—particularly anthocyanins from strawberry and blackberry juice concentrates—can degrade under high heat or oxidation, potentially browning over time. Members have found several practical solutions: (1) Reduce pasteurisation temperature slightly and compensate with longer hold time to maintain the same pasteurisation unit; (2) Add ascorbic acid at 0.2g/L as an antioxidant to prevent oxidative browning; (3) Lower pH slightly, which stabilises anthocyanins; (4) Switch to more heat-stable natural colours—members recommend black carrot extract as the top option for pink-red tones, or EXBerry/GNT as premium suppliers of stable natural colours. Since your product is canned (not glass), light strike is not a concern. The ultimate factory validation method is heating the product in a dishwasher to test pasteurisation effect on colour stability.
What duty changes on spirits are expected in the upcoming HMRC budget announcement?
Members anticipate a spirits duty increase of 30–35p per 70cl bottle of 40% ABV (roughly £0.20–£0.29 per litre), with the announcement expected on 27 October. However, there is uncertainty: if the government states "no change to government policy" on spirits duty, this will in effect trigger an automatic 4.9% rise in line with RPI. The government is expected to simplify the duty structure by targeting growth categories (pre-mixed drinks, seltzer) while being gentler on UK beer—the most vocal complainants. Members also highlight ongoing industry lobbying through the BDA and WSTA to scrap the duty stamp scheme, which was introduced post-Brexit to prevent cross-border duty arbitrage but is now seen as unnecessary bureaucracy. There is frustration that craft-producer relief schemes (similar to the US Craft Beverage Modernisation and Tax Reform Act model) remain blocked by lobbying from large spirits producers, despite years of campaigning.
What is the financial and operational performance of participating in Pub in the Park events as a bottle shop or bar operator?
Members' experience with Pub in the Park is decidedly mixed and depends heavily on format and location. For bottle sales, most participants do not break even financially—one member who did "all of them over the years" noted they're "very hit and miss" and shouldn't be expected to turn profit on off-sales. Marlow is the strongest performing location; Bath performs okay; other venues were described as "awful." However, a collaboration model—partnering with a bar operator rather than running standalone bottle sales—has worked better, eliminating staffing costs and accommodation risk while maintaining visibility. For pouring bars, the picture has shifted: members running cocktail/draught operations report doing "pretty good" at some locations, though they're seeing a downward trend. This is because event organisers increasingly prioritize pouring bars (now 15 per event vs. previously 5–6) because they generate more upfront cash than bottle shops, squeezing the economics for smaller operators. Pitch fees are negotiable, especially when committing to the full portfolio of events, but organisers have historically had cash-flow issues—this varies with their desperation and how many pitches they've already sold. The fundamental challenge: most attendees are there for the vibe, music, and food, not to shop for bottles. Success requires strong positioning (good setup, DJ, visibility), competitive pricing, and a recognizable brand—major spirits brands have largely secured the best bar pitches. Members now use these events selectively for quieter weekends when alternative activations aren't available, viewing them primarily as brand exposure rather than revenue drivers.
What is a good rate of sale (ROS) benchmark for spirits and RTD products in UK retail stores?
Members report that benchmarks vary significantly by product type and retail channel. For grocery stores generally, 1 bottle per store per week is considered a basic benchmark across spirits (alc and non-alc). For RTD cans in grocery, the consensus sits at 4–5 units per store per week as average, though members note RTD ranges between 6–10 units weekly depending on the product. One member reported being targeted at Sainsbury's on a premium tequila (£34) at 4–5 cans per week. Anything over 6 units per week for RTD is considered a great success by one experienced member. Context matters significantly: chiller placement and shelf position drive substantially stronger ROS, as do multi-buy promotions (which account for a large percentage of RTD sales). Tesco Metro locations tend to show notably stronger velocity. Members also noted that Costco turns stock 12+ times per year (fastest in industry), traditional retail closer to 3–5 times annually, and that buyer profitability calculations—gross margin after promotions and investment—now often matter as much as raw volume in securing listings.
Which Pub in the Park artisan market locations are worth exhibiting at, and what should brands expect in terms of ROI and costs?
Members report highly variable results depending on location and booth positioning. Marlow, Wimbledon, and Tunbridge Wells have been profitable for some, though Marlow's performance can fluctuate year-to-year. St Albans is noted as 'good for alcohol'. Chiswick has strong foot traffic but a less effective layout. Location within the event is critical—a poor spot can make the difference between profit and loss, even at otherwise promising venues. Members strongly recommend negotiating hard on booth fees, as these events are expensive to exhibit at. The artisan market itself is considered less valuable than 'proper pitches' at the same events. Avoid Foodies events (Brighton cited as weak; also noted as more expensive than Pub in the Park and problematic operationally). Wimbledon and Dulwich have both delivered good results for at least one exhibitor.
Which business credit cards offer the best rewards and benefits for UK drinks-industry spending?
Members recommend **American Express** business cards as the primary option for accumulating rewards on company spending, particularly for those who travel frequently. **Specific cards and benefits:** - **BA Business Amex** — £250 annual fee; earns 1.5 Avios per £1 spent (paid into personal Avios account); double points on BA tickets; includes travel insurance and 56 days interest-free payment. Members note this works best if you fly long-haul on British Airways frequently, though you can also redeem on Iberia and American Airlines through the On Business loyalty programme. Availability on free tickets is not limited like standard Avios redemptions. - **Amex Gold** — Free for the first year; members report good value and recommend it as a solid entry point. - **Amex Platinum** — Available through referral links; members using multiple Amex cards across businesses report satisfaction with the programme. **Point conversion and redemption:** Members report converting Amex points directly to British Airways Avios for flight bookings. One member noted that roughly 500–625 points per economy transatlantic return flight means seven or eight trips generate enough miles for a free return ticket to New York. Another member reported that £400k in annual spend translates to approximately two business-class returns to LA (plus taxes). **Caveats:** Members stressed that these rewards are most valuable for frequent long-haul travellers; the cards tie you into specific airline alliances (BA/Iberia/AA), and redemption availability and pricing fluctuate with fuel surcharges and fees. One member cautioned that flight prices have increased significantly and redemption value may diminish.
What is Distill Ventures and what are the equivalent investment funds from other major drinks producers?
**Distill Ventures** is Diageo's corporate investment and accelerator fund. It has backed multiple spirits and drinks brands in the portfolio including **Seedlip**, **Stauning Whisky**, **Duppy**, **El Rayo**, **Mr Black**, **Pedrino**, **Belsazar**, and **Caleno**. The fund operates both in the US and internationally, with a dedicated investment team managing portfolio companies outside the US. Equivalent corporate venture funds from other major drinks producers include: - **ZX Ventures** — AB InBev's venture investment arm - **Convivialité Ventures** — Pernod Ricard's equivalent (likely, based on community discussion) Members note that Distill Ventures is an active route for founders seeking scale investment, and the fund has representatives embedded in the Kindred Collective community who are open to direct conversation about partnership opportunities.
How should wholesalers be charged for delivery, and what's the best approach to implementing price increases to wholesale partners?
Members emphasize two key principles: delivery should always be included in the wholesale price (never charged separately to the wholesaler), and price increases should be implemented annually rather than ad-hoc to avoid larger, more damaging jumps later. **Delivery pricing:** - Always quote a delivered wholesale price—build your average delivery cost into the per-unit pricing rather than invoicing separately - Use minimum order quantities (MOQ) as a lever: if orders fall below a certain threshold (e.g., less than a case or below pallet quantities), you can introduce an additional delivery fee to protect margin - Some regional or friendly wholesalers may even collect from you, but this should never be assumed **Price increase strategy:** - Implement annual increases as standard practice, even if COGS haven't moved significantly. Members stressed this builds the habit with wholesalers, who expect it and typically request pay rises themselves annually - Typical increases range from 3–12% depending on circumstances; members who delayed increases for 5 years faced the risk of needing a large catch-up adjustment later - Provide 3 months' notice before implementation (typically end of September for January implementation) - Use the phrase "Price Movement" rather than "price increase"—it's more palatable - Always provide clear rationale: cover both macro issues (inflation, duty, COGS) and micro issues (brand positioning, retail price barriers) - Consider your brand's market position and the impact on retail shelf price; be aware of psychological price barriers (e.g., £20, £25, £30 for spirits) - Don't over-communicate; treat increases as routine market adjustment, not a major negotiation **Initial wholesale pricing:** When setting up direct-to-hotel or direct wholesale arrangements, build in a "wholesale buffer margin" (estimated at 15% or £5–6 per case) to protect yourself if the wholesaler later needs to source through a distributor. Wholesalers typically expect 50% of retail selling price as gross profit.
What margins and commitments do major UK retailers expect from drinks suppliers?
Retailer margins vary significantly by channel and retailer type. **Off-trade (retail) margins** typically range from 25–40%, though some premium retailers push higher and occasional outliers demand 70%. **Premium supermarkets** (Waitrose, Sainsbury's) calculate margin as NOG (Net on Gross, including VAT), targeting 20–25%; **value supermarkets** (Tesco, Asda) use POR (Profit on Return, ex-VAT), targeting 27–32%. Margins are often blended between on-promotion and off-promotion prices, and the retailer will guide expected basket mix. **Premium independent retailers** like Daylesford may expect margins around 55%. **On-trade (pub) margins** are much higher: independent pubs typically seek 60–75% gross profit (calculated on per-serve pricing, e.g. 10 serves × 6 margin = 60% vs. purchase price). Pubs standard gross profit is 70–72%. **Harrods** specifically targets gross profit of 42–45% and expects back margin of around £1m annually; spirits buyers are nick.fleming@harrods.com and wines buyers are siobhan.irons@harrods.com. A key note: Harrods' vodka and gin sales are weak (c. £3k/week) compared to whisky, Bordeaux and burgundy (£100k+/week), and baijiu and tequila significantly outsell gin and vodka—listing there is a lighthouse for brand and export positioning rather than volume. Members caution that some retailers (e.g. Whole Foods) may not suit alcohol due to margin constraints, and retailers like Cress may demand unsustainably high margins relative to volume opportunity.
Where can drinks brands source raw ingredients like pink grapefruit, cachaça, rye whisky under bond, and bulk agave syrup?
The community has shared several specific supplier routes for key ingredients: **Pink grapefruit**: Members flagged interest in sourcing but no specific supplier was named in the discussion; this may require direct outreach to produce wholesalers or citrus distributors. **Cachaça producers supplying direct**: A member posted a direct request seeking cachaça producers who can supply direct, but no specific supplier was named in these excerpts. **Rye profile whisky under bond (~£15 per 70cl)**: - **Organic English rye whisky**: One member has 1800L of organic English rye under bond and was open to selling in quantities around 10 cases; contact james@tomsavano.com for details. - **Bottle & Rye**: Mentioned as a potential source. **Bulk agave syrup at low MOQs**: - **Woods**: Supplies 5-litre jerries; price not specified but members calculated that purchasing 5 jerries was cost-effective for their needs. - Direct member inventory: One member has 275kg of agave syrup and indicated spare stock available via DM. **Note**: The pink grapefruit and cachaça sourcing questions generated interest but no concrete suppliers were named in the community discussion, so members may need to follow up directly or tap the WhatsApp group for introductions.
What licenses do you need to sell alcohol online direct to consumers in the UK?
The licensing requirements for online alcohol sales are complex and interpretation varies by local authority, so it's essential to speak directly with your local licensing team and HMRC. **Key points members have confirmed:** - **Premises license** — Required if you're selling alcohol online from your own premises (e.g. office or home). If you're using a warehouse or distribution partner with their own premises license, you may not need one yourself, but this is a grey area open to local interpretation. Some local authorities insist you need a 24-hour premises license for round-the-clock online sales; others take a different view. The premises license is typically tied to where payment is taken (your website), not where stock is held. - **Personal license** — Conflicting advice here. HMRC told one member you don't need a personal license for D2C online sales (the Wine & Spirits Trade Association confirmed this). However, others report being told by HMRC that a personal license *is* required for online sales and events. This appears to vary by region and HMRC officer interpretation. - **AWRS (Alcohol Wholesale Registration Scheme)** — One member clarified this is for selling to the trade only, not D2C. - **Age verification** — If you hold a premises license, age verification on your website (e.g. the "are you 18?" check) counts as your side of age verification; the delivery company is then responsible for checking age on receipt. **Recommended approach:** - Speak directly to **HMRC** and your local licensing authority before launch — don't rely on online information or other businesses' experiences, as interpretation varies significantly by area (e.g. Brighton and London have reportedly different requirements). - The **Wine & Spirits Trade Association (WSTA)** was recommended by members as a reliable source of guidance. - If using a warehouse or third-party distributor, confirm they hold their own premises license. **Caveat:** Members reported significant confusion and conflicting information across the industry. Local authority interpretation appears to be the deciding factor.
How should an option pool be structured when raising capital—should new shares be created, or should the pool come from founder shares?
When setting up an option pool, **new shares should be created** to dilute the whole company pro-rata, rather than coming from founder shares alone. This is market standard practice. **Key principles:** - New shares dilute everyone proportionally—all shareholders (founders, existing investors, employees) take the dilution, not just founders - This applies unless your Shareholder Agreement or Articles of Association explicitly contain non-dilution clauses, which are rare outside of specific anti-dilution protections in investment rounds - Option pools are typically **excluded from anti-dilution top-ups**, meaning everyone dilutes pro-rata when the pool is created - If your Articles or legal docs specify that one person takes the full hit, that would be non-standard and should be reviewed **Tax-efficient route in the UK:** - Consider setting up an **EMI (Enterprise Management Incentives) share option scheme**, which offers tax efficiency for employees. See: https://www.gov.uk/tax-employee-share-schemes/company-share-option-plan **What members did:** - Several members set up their option pools to dilute everyone proportionally when established - One member noted that an investor/board member pushing for founder-only dilution was incorrect—this runs counter to 10 years of VC market practice **Caveat:** If your SHA or investment docs include specific non-dilution or anti-dilution clauses, review them carefully—but standard practice is pro-rata dilution for option pool creation.
Where can we source standard off-the-shelf 6-bottle wine cardboard cases with reasonable lead times?
Several suppliers offer off-the-shelf wine cases, though lead times vary significantly. Members have identified the following options: - **Smurfitt Kappa** (Holland) — offers a "premium" service for standard unbranded cases with a 5-week lead time. Contact: sonja.romeijn-velderman@smurfitkappa.nl - **Kite** — recommended as a good option for stock availability on standard cases - **Rajapack** — mentioned as an alternative, though recent stock availability was reported as limited - **Davpack** — suggested as another potential supplier - **Boxes Direct** — members have used this as a stopgap supplier for online orders (www.boxesdirect.co.uk) - **WBC** (Wine Bottle Cases) — offers pallets of 6-bottle budget transit cases available in bulk, including fold-up options (https://www.wbc.co.uk/offers/bulk-buy/6-bottle-budget-transit-pallet-bulk-buy/) **Caveat:** Even for standard, unbranded cases, lead times remain long (5 weeks minimum reported). Stock availability fluctuates, so checking directly with suppliers for current availability is essential before committing to orders.
What are the known reliability issues with EMCS and ATWD systems, and what workarounds are members using?
Members report persistent downtime and poor user experience with both EMCS and ATWD systems. **Reliability issues:** - EMCS frequently goes down on critical business days, forcing members to use fallback procedures (some members reported having to execute 2 fallback submissions in a single day) - ATWD requires repeated page reloads and navigation workarounds to access reliably - The broader website hosting these systems is unstable **User experience problems with the updated EMCS:** - The newer version, while offering helpful improvements (dropdown codes for easier selection), has significantly worse UX with excessive button clicks and too many pages to complete data entry - Members report it now takes longer to complete submissions than the previous system **Workarounds:** - Keep fallback submission procedures ready and practiced - When EMCS is down, have ATWD as an alternative (though it's also unreliable) - Plan shipment timing with system downtime risk in mind — members noted having to delay underbond shipments into Local Control of Betting (LCB) due to EMCS failures **Caveat:** While members universally agree the systems are problematic, no formal alternative routing or vendor solutions were discussed. The consensus is these are systemic issues requiring tolerance and workarounds rather than replacement.
Which industry awards competitions are worth entering for credibility and ROI, and what's the best strategy for competition submissions?
The awards landscape is increasingly crowded and many competitions have diminished value. Members recommend a focused, strategic approach rather than entering multiple competitions. **Most valued competitions globally:** - **San Francisco World Spirits Competition** — cited as the most globally recognised and prestigious; has separate sections for liquid and design. However, one member cautioned they're "constantly surprised at the top award winners." - **IWSC (International Wine and Spirit Competition)** — particularly strong in South-East Asia and Europe; holds good traction in different markets than San Francisco - Members noted that **different regions favour different competitions** — IWSC may carry more weight in SE Asia and Europe, San Francisco stateside; impact may vary by spirit category **Strategy recommendations:** - **Enter 1–2 prestigious awards per year maximum** — don't enter multiple competitions. Once you have a couple of wins, stop entering unless pursuing a specific strategy. - **Rotate which SKU you enter** — if you have 3 products, enter a different one each year rather than entering all categories repeatedly - **Choose based on your target market** — tailor competition selection to geographic expansion plans and where those awards hold sway - **Leverage wins for PR and trade conversation** — the real value isn't consumer-facing (most don't know the difference between awarding bodies); instead use wins to generate media coverage, give sales teams talking points with the trade, and provide independent quality verification - **The Grey Goose precedent** — a legendary example: they won San Francisco on first entry, claimed the title publicly, then never entered again. This only works if the competition awards a single winner (not multiple golds) - **Enter international awards for distributor prospecting** — some members noted that competing in international competitions like International Spirit Selection puts your brand in front of judges who are often distributors, leading to unsolicited distributor enquiries in new markets **Caveats:** - Many competitions are "a bit of a racket" with high entry fees and diluted credibility from handing out too many medals - Importers and buyers don't typically ask for awards; liquor boards (like Canada's LCBO) may reference them, but don't rely on awards alone to drive rotation - Consumer purchasing decisions are ultimately taste-based, not award-based - Resting on a win without active promotion is a wasted entry fee
Are there reliability issues with flexihex flap boxes, and does the supplier matter?
Most members report flexihex flap boxes work reliably, but occasional issues do occur—typically depending on where you source them. Since the design was sold, not all boxes are equal in quality. **Sourcing recommendations:** - **Buy direct from the manufacturer** — members who source directly report the most reliable performance and no issues - **Kite** — reported as working fine with no problems - **Rajapack** — some members have had success, but others report their boxes occasionally need reinforcement; if sourcing here, consider adding tape as backup **Risk mitigation:** Members recommend using tape on flexihex boxes as a safety measure, even if you haven't experienced failures. Several note they add tape "just to be safe" regardless of source, and some suspect occasional "dud batches" may occur. The added tape cost is minimal compared to the risk of flaps opening in transit or on shelf.
What are the key regulatory, structural and practical challenges when launching spirits into the US market, and how should brands approach state-by-state expansion?
The US spirits market operates as a 50-state regulatory maze with no direct-to-consumer sales permitted. Members emphasize treating each state as a separate country—expansion is slow, expensive, and requires strategic selectivity rather than pursuing all states immediately. **Market structure and regulatory framework:** - The US operates a mandatory three-tier system: supplier/importer → distributor → retailer. Direct sales to consumers are not permitted in most states. - No single US-wide license exists; each state has its own regulatory requirements and approval process. **Market entry routes:** - **Working with an importer** — Several members use importers who then represent the brand to distributors across multiple states. This adds a middleman but significantly reduces complexity compared to managing 50 separate relationships directly. - **Distributor relationships** — Members are actively seeking direct relationships with US distributors to understand state-specific requirements and market conditions. **Expansion strategy:** - **Selective state focus is more effective than rapid 50-state expansion** — Members report that concentrating on 5–9 strategically chosen states yields better results than attempting to launch everywhere simultaneously. One member noted that brandy sales patterns vary dramatically by state (e.g., performing differently in Hawaii vs. Wisconsin), so product fit matters. - **Timeline expectations** — One brand took 3 years to establish a presence in just 2 states before accelerating to 17 states in one year and tracking toward 50 by year-end. Another notes the process "takes time and money" and involves "painful learnings." - **Cost** — Members have invested significant capital over multiple years ("stupid money" was mentioned), so budgeting for a multi-year, expensive rollout is essential. **Caveats:** - There is no one-size-fits-all approach; the right number of states to launch in depends on the specific product, brand positioning, and available budget. Focus and depth in fewer states may outperform shallow distribution across many.
Which suppliers do community members recommend for branded merchandise like ice buckets, aprons, blankets, cool boxes, parasols and paper cups?
Members have shared several go-to suppliers for branded merchandise, each with different strengths: **Ice buckets:** - **Waiters Friend** (waitersfriend.co.uk/product-category/ice-buckets/) — members report good experience - **Outdoor POS** (outdoor-pos.com/products/barware, contact: jelle@outdoor-pos.com) — praised for quick turnaround and low minimum order quantities - **Pedrino** — offered as a short lead time option by a member **Aprons:** - Low MOQ branded aprons can be sourced, though one member suggested asking for Simon Davies (of Chase) as a potential contact for classy options **Blankets and cool boxes:** - **Outdoor POS** also handles these items with low MOQ and quick turnaround **Parasols and paper cups:** - Sourcing parasols and paper cups can be done through Chinese suppliers at the cheapest price point, though lead times are typically 3.5 months - Members noted Chinese sourcing is "much much much cheaper" but require patience on delivery **Note:** Willis was previously recommended by the community for ice buckets but members report recent difficulties getting quotes. Outdoor POS appears to be the current preferred alternative for multiple product categories with shorter lead times and flexible MOQs.
Which industry awards and competitions should spirits brands prioritise based on their target market strategy?
The value of industry awards depends heavily on your target market. Members identify a clear hierarchy: **For B2C/Consumer Recognition:** - **Great Taste Awards** — the only award consumers consistently recognise across retail and direct channels. At £40 per entry with cheap stickers, it offers the best ROI for consumer-facing brands. The award itself (bronze/silver/gold) is easily understood by the public, unlike most trade-only medals. **For Trade/On-Trade (UK):** - **CLASS Brand Awards** — particularly valuable for building trust in quality within the top-tier on-trade. Brings together highly regarded industry professionals and has strong buyer attendance. Best leveraged as a sponsorship opportunity to connect with decision-makers before/after the event rather than at the event itself. - **International Spirits Challenge (ISC)** — top-tier trade recognition, though entry costs have become "stupidly expensive" with "little to no reward" relative to other options. - **IWSC** — globally recognised across the entire industry. One of only two awards that pay judges for their time (the other being World Drinks Awards), meaning better judging talent. Members note this works well for distributor credibility. **Global/Export Strategy:** - **IWSC** — the only award that "actually matters and is recognised in every part of the industry" globally. - **San Francisco World Spirits Competition** — holds significant sway in the US market, though members debate how many spirit brands actually use these medals on bottles. **Strategic Approach:** Members emphasise that awards are increasingly commoditised, with most competitions awarding so many medals (gold/silver/bronze) that consumer recognition is diluted. The real value comes from: (1) choosing awards aligned to your specific market (consumer vs. trade vs. export), and (2) actively leveraging the award afterward through marketing, distributor pitches, and networking—not just "moving on after the champagne hangover has faded." A "double whammy" strategy of nailing both IWSC and Great Taste covers global credibility and UK consumer recognition. Members question whether entering multiple times after an initial win adds meaningful value, though anecdotal evidence suggests distributor interest can spike following awards (e.g., Taiwan distributor outreach after World Liqueur Awards win). **Caveats:** - Most awards are now seen as "wallpaper" with commercial insignificance due to oversupply. - Many brands don't put medals on bottles, limiting consumer-facing ROI. - Entry costs are high for ISC and similar trade-only awards relative to actual business impact. - Consumer recognition is the exception (Great Taste); most other awards only resonate within industry circles.
How do brewery cellar line installations and venue equipment ownership typically work in pubs and bars? Can venues purchase equipment, and what are the rental/service arrangements?
Brewery cellar equipment ownership and terms vary by deal and brewery size, but here's what the community has seen in practice: **Typical ownership and control:** - Breweries usually retain ownership of installed cellar equipment (chillers, lines) and handle insurance and servicing via a specialist like **Innserve**. - Unless there's a formal agreement in place, venues are generally free to change which products they serve, though enforcement is inconsistent—most venues simply switch taps without pushback. - The rules are treated as "a bit of a grey area" and enforcement depends heavily on the brewery's attention and rep involvement. **Line rental and purchasing:** - Venues can rent existing lines from whoever installed them, which leaves the brewery with minimal liability and is often the easiest route. - Breweries may "sell" a line to a venue for around **£150 per line** if the venue wants to add a brand the brewery doesn't control (e.g., Guinness). - There is mention of a threshold period after which venues may have a right to purchase equipment outright from the brewery, though the exact timeframe is unclear and this should be verified with the specific brewery. **Deal structures (larger brewers):** - Large brewers like Carlsberg and Heineken have historically used cellar equipment as a tool to tie venues into exclusivity: they may insist all lines be purchased through the brewery, including brands they don't produce, often tied to volume targets or retroactive rebates. - Cask volumes are sometimes used as a negotiation tool for free lines, since larger brewers are less concerned about cask sales. - Smaller brands are increasingly cross-charged for line access. **Key caveats:** - If you purchase equipment outright, you must have someone available to service and maintain it—this can be a burden, especially on busy Saturday nights when breakdowns occur. - Before negotiating any new arrangement, find out what deal (if any) the venue is already on, as this shapes what's negotiable. - Community members noted this information was 6+ years old; practices may have evolved.
What licensing do I need to sell alcohol direct-to-consumer through third-party platforms like Amazon?
The licensing requirement depends on where your fulfilment happens. If you're selling D2C through third-party platforms like **Amazon**, you typically need a premises licence because the platform treats it as selling directly to the public. However, members have found workarounds: - **Using a bonded warehouse's premises licence** — Several members use a third-party bonded warehouse for fulfilment and leverage their existing premises licence rather than obtaining their own. This is the most common approach. - **Operating from your own licensed premises** — Some members set up D2C fulfilment from a licensed premise they own (which can have a different trading name from your brand). - **Selling from your own website** — Members report that D2C sales via your own website do not require a premise licence, only third-party platform sales. **Important caveat**: Amazon in particular has been strict about this requirement. Members who initially faced rejection were told to persist with appeals, providing all correct information and requesting escalation to a supervisor—it reportedly took 9–10 messages for some to get approval. Keep emphasising that fulfilment is from a licensed premises (either your own or a bonded warehouse's), and you should eventually get through.
What causes white floating bits in non-chill-filtered tequila, and is it a quality issue?
White floating bits in non-chill-filtered tequila are **not a quality or safety issue**—they're a natural consequence of the filtration choice. **What's happening:** When tequila hasn't been chill-filtered, naturally occurring **fatty acids from the agave** can precipitate and crystallise in cold temperatures (particularly in UK storage or during Atlantic transit). These appear as small white or pale blue floating particles that dissolve immediately when you shake the bottle or warm it up. **Key points members shared:** - **Chill filtration removes these fats**, which is why chill-filtered spirits don't exhibit this. However, members noted that **non-chill-filtered spirits retain more flavour** because those fats carry aromatic compounds—this is how tequila was traditionally made and consumed in Mexico (where temperatures never drop enough for precipitation). - The issue is more common with **lower ABV liquids**. - Members distinguished this from actual quality problems: a luxury non-chill-filtered brand experiencing this is normal; cheap tequila with additives might show sugar crystallising instead, which is different. - One producer noted they experienced this with their first batch before acquiring chill-filtration equipment, and confirmed the particles are purely agave fats, not contaminants. **What to do:** Simply shake the bottle and the particles will re-dissolve. No action needed. The taste is unaffected. **Caveat:** Some consumers unfamiliar with non-chill-filtered spirits may mistakenly believe something is wrong with the product, so transparency on labelling or in sales conversations helps manage expectations.
Why are our RTD cans leaking, and what can liner do we need for lower pH products with salt?
Salt is highly corrosive to cans and a common cause of leaks, even when pH is above 3.0. Your canner may have incorrectly advised that liner isn't needed above pH 3—this guidance doesn't account for salt content or other corrosive compounds. **Diagnosis and testing:** - Request a **BCT (can liner) test** from your canner to identify the exact liner type currently in use and whether it's appropriate - Conduct a **physical liquid compatibility test** to confirm the product won't corrode the liner - Check for corrosion occurring from inside the can (liner failure) or outside (residue on the exterior causing inward corrosion) - Verify sulphate levels in your recipe, as these also affect corrosion risk **Liner recommendations:** - **Epoxy wine can liners** are generally the strongest option, though members have seen failures even with these when salt is present - Members report **Ardagh cans** performing better than **Ball cans** for corrosive products, though this may be liner-dependent rather than manufacturer-dependent **Key considerations:** - Even minimum salt levels in the recipe can cause problems; consider **reformulation (removing or reducing salt)** if liner upgrades don't resolve the issue - This is described as "a minefield"—close collaboration with your canner and physical testing is essential before scaling production - Have your canner revisit their liner recommendation given the presence of salt in your recipe.
What alcohol licenses are required to sell online direct-to-consumer and B2B in the UK?
You need multiple licenses depending on your sales channel: **B2B sales:** Members confirm you must register with **AWRS (Alcohol Wholesaler Registration Scheme)** via the HMRC website (https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-alcohol-wholesaler-registration-scheme-awrs). This is the legal requirement for wholesaling alcohol to other businesses. **D2C online sales:** You can sell online without additional restrictions, but the goods must ship from a licensed premises. This can be your own premises or a third-party fulfilment house that holds an alcohol license. **Required premises and personal licenses:** For any D2C operation, you need: - An **off-licence for your premises** (the physical location from which alcohol is shipped) - A **personal licence for the Designated Premises Supervisor (DPS)**—the individual responsible for the premises Members emphasize that the structure is: AWRS registration for B2B wholesale eligibility, plus premises and personal licensing for the actual location where stock is held and shipped. If using a third-party fulfilment house, that house must already hold the necessary alcohol premises license.
Which consumer shows and trade events should we exhibit at throughout the year for product sampling and direct sales?
Members recommend a mix of dedicated food and drink consumer fairs and seasonal events, with proven returns on investment. The key is choosing shows that align with your product category and price point. **Proven shows:** - **BBC Good Food Show** — strong performer; one member sold 820 bottles of their £20 (70cl) product at the winter edition and 530 at summer, generating significant revenue - **Ideal Home Show / Eat&Drink Festival** (runs late November–early December at Olympia) — described as "a must attend" with "great return" for spirits brands; typically sells bottled product around the £30 retail price point **Key planning points:** - Clarify before committing: whether you can sell ready-made cocktails, bottles for off-licence, or both - Understand stand setup costs and requirements upfront - Track sales volume and retail price to compare ROI across events - Consider creating a shared member list of annual events and feedback by category, so brands can learn from each other's experiences at different shows **Caveat:** Members are still collecting comprehensive year-round event data. The above reflects confirmed recent experience; a more complete calendar is being compiled by the community.
Which 3PL and fulfilment companies work well for D2C operations?
Members recommend several options depending on geography, channel mix, and budget: - **Diamond Logistics** — Consistently praised for service quality. Use Flexi-Hex packaging. Contact: Emma.Whitaker@diamondlogistics.co.uk. Portsmouth location reported working well; some members note they aren't the cheapest but deliver good value. - **Big Blue Logistics** — Recommended specifically for B2C. Raising Series A funding. Members suggest requesting an intro to the CEO. - **Future Pro Logistics** — Working well but noted as expensive. - **BWA** — Described as good and cheap. - **Robert Guy** (https://www.robertguy.co.uk) — London-based option suitable if geographically convenient, but storage costs are high. **To avoid:** - **Codestorm** — Multiple members report poor service and are actively looking to exit. The Dudley warehouse location was specifically called out as problematic; Portsmouth location performs better if you must use them. **Key caveat:** Members note that different 3PLs suit different business stages and channels. Geography matters significantly (London storage is premium; Portsmouth works well for others). Request introductions and site visits before committing, as location quality varies even within the same company.
How should you structure wholesale, retail, bar, and ecommerce pricing when selling through multiple channels?
The key principle is to avoid channel conflict by keeping pricing aligned across wholesalers and retailers, then building your model backwards from RRP. Many large UK wholesalers (Matthew Clark, LWC, Carlsberg, Molson Coors) don't supply retailers, so don't assume a traditional retail-first model. **Pricing structure for spirits (example: £40 RRP):** - £40 RRP / 1.2 = £33.33 exc VAT (your net sell-out price) - Apply 25% retail/wholesaler margin: £33.33 × (1 – 0.25) = £25 Wholesale Selling Price (WSP) - Subtract duty (c.£9 for a 70cl spirit at 40% ABV) = £16 net WSP - Typical gross margin target: 65%, which yields ~£5.60 COGS **Key caveats and variations:** - Gross margins vary by channel: 45% for retailers/wholesalers down to 10% in some cases - **Exclusive distributors** typically require 20–30% gross margin on net sales (can be higher or lower depending on volumes) - Wine, RTD, and beer margins differ significantly from spirits - **Direct-to-bar pricing:** Set this at the wholesaler sell-out price (£33.33 in the example above) to avoid undercutting wholesale customers. Some members set it between wholesale and ecommerce prices. - **Independent retailers:** Price at the same level as direct-to-bars (the wholesaler sell-out price), as they typically order smaller quantities - **One unified price across wholesalers and retailers** is strongly recommended, especially when companies operate multiple channels or face buyouts (Matthew Clark/Booker/Tesco scenarios). Members warned that having different pricing models for different channels creates exposure during consolidation and can be "a world of pain." You can always add retroactive incentives or volume discounts without changing base pricing. **Important warning:** Major acquisitions in distribution (e.g., Bargain Booze buying MCW, Tesco buying Booker) have historically created significant problems for brands with inconsistent pricing across channels.
Where can members source key bulk ingredients and bases for drinks production, such as juices, spirits, glycerine, and non-spirits alcohol?
The community has shared several reliable sourcing contacts and suppliers for bulk drinks ingredients: **Juices** - **Eager** — recommended as an affordable wholesaler for bulk juices (orange, pineapple and others); members have used them for years at bars. **White Rum** - **Two Drifters** — contact mentioned as a potential white rum supplier for projects. - **UK-based European rum distillery** — members note access to 7 different white rum marques (molasses and cane fermentations, column/pot/double retort, made in England from scratch). **Non-Spirits Alcohol Bases** - **Bevisol** — specialises in non-NGS (non-grain spirits) alcohol bases for RTD products. They offer low-price neutral cider base. Contact: simon.fletcher@bevisol.com. Simon Fletcher is the key contact. - **Larger contract wineries, cideries and breweries** — members report having contacts available for those seeking provenance-led alcohol bases. **Elderflower Liqueur** - **Michael Mydflower** — recommended as a potential source for elderflower liqueur for cocktail applications; described as "very good liquid." **Caveats:** The discussion excerpts do not contain specific recommendations for dehydrated fruit in bulk, vegetable glycerine sourcing, aged rum for product development, or bulk tequila in IBC containers, despite these being asked questions. Members interested in those should ask directly in the group.
Which business banks work best for UK spirits companies, and what are the key features members recommend?
For spirits businesses, several banks stand out with different strengths: - **Mettle** — owned by NatWest, includes a free FreeAgent account, but does NOT work with spirits companies, so not suitable for this sector. - **Starling** — highly praised for overall service, app and platform quality. Offers a Euro account for £2/month, making it a strong option for multi-currency needs. - **Revolut** — recommended for multi-currency support and has been reliable for members' small business accounts. Some past concerns around security have reportedly been addressed and are now on par with competitors. - **Wise** — consistently recommended for multi-currency needs and business accounts. Offers FSCS protection (which Revolut does not), making it a safer choice for regulatory peace of mind. Members suggest Wise or Starling as the safest bets if you're handling spirits and need multi-currency capability.
What are compliant alternatives to single-use plastic cups for event sampling following the single-use plastics ban?
The single-use plastics ban's scope on cups remains unclear—it explicitly covers polystyrene cups and plates, but the guidance on other cup materials is ambiguous and varies by local council interpretation. Members have identified several practical alternatives: - **Paper cups** — recyclable and widely used for samples; members note the trade-off is a less premium tasting experience compared to plastic - **Goforgreen recyclable 4oz cups** — more expensive than standard options but described as looking great and meeting compliance - **Biodegradable starch-based cups** — members have used these, but warn they dissolve if used for hot beverages, limiting their application - **Pre-filled packaging exemption** — the DEFRA guidance includes an exemption for "items that are packaging (pre-filled or filled at the point of sale)," which several members believe could potentially cover event tasting samples if they're positioned as pre-packaged product rather than disposable serviceware **Important caveats:** The ban has not yet been fully enacted into law in all jurisdictions—only guidance exists from DEFRA and some local councils (e.g. Brighton & Hove). Local council interpretation varies significantly. Before committing to large event quantities, members recommend checking your specific local authority's published guidance rather than relying on the national guidance alone, as enforcement varies. The packaging exemption interpretation is uncertain and one member notes they would not want to "pick a fight" with their local council over the definition.
How can drinks brands get listed on Amazon without their own premises license?
Getting on Amazon without a personal premises license is difficult but members have found a few workarounds—though none are straightforward. **Key approaches members have used:** - **Get a premises license in your own name** — One member resolved Amazon's rejection of their LCB storage license by applying for a premises license at their flat in their personal name rather than their Ltd Co, and Amazon eventually accepted it. They noted this required convincing the local council (in their case Lambeth) of the business case. - **Use a fulfilment/agency partner** — Members recommend **Rosetta Brands**, which handles Amazon compliance and fulfillment for brands; they offer tiered packages depending on SKU count and marketing spend. At least one member hired an agency to handle the Amazon application but they gave up after 2 months. Other members mention working with agencies but note it's "pay to play" and have shelved the idea as a result. Some members have been offered introductions to other "great" fulfilment companies via direct message that can handle this, though details remain confidential within the group. - **Try persistence and escalation** — One member reported success by resubmitting their application entirely in capital letters and getting approved; another noted that back in 2020, repeated escalation requests to a manager eventually worked. **Important caveats:** - Amazon's acceptance criteria are opaque and inconsistent. Multiple members have had applications rejected despite having valid premises and personal licenses in the correct name, and Amazon has refused to explain why. - Amazon's support is largely automated; you need to be doing £250k+ annually before a human account manager will engage with you. - Several members report their account managers have stopped responding to emails and describe the whole process as "frustrating" and "impossible to speak to anyone." - Even with premises licenses, some members' applications were rejected without clear explanation.
What are the best couriers, documentation requirements, and cost-effective options for shipping spirits samples internationally?
Shipping alcohol samples internationally is expensive and requires specific courier partnerships and documentation. Start by checking your destination country's ABV threshold—South Africa, for example, won't accept products under 43% ABV. **Recommended couriers:** - **FedEx** — several members report success; set up a direct account (not through a third party) and expect costs around £50–80 all-in for boxes under 5kg, plus duties and taxes. Some report it as the most straightforward option once you have the account configured. - **DHL** — reliable for delivery but consistently expensive; members report £60–80+ per shipment and suggest only using if you can't get FedEx to work. - **UPS** — one member successfully shipped alcohol UK to Netherlands for £22.50 postage (though receiver paid €47 in import taxes on an £85 package). - **CID Wines** — handles "VIP international stuff" and can get items into most countries, but noted as "very expensive." Used by members for years with reliability. - **Transglobal Express** — mentioned for price competitiveness alongside FedEx/DHL. **Documentation & declarations:** - Include **3 copies of an itemised invoice and packing list**, with ABV and bottle details clearly stated. - Mark shipments as "non-commercial samples" where possible. - Always declare sender-pays duties to avoid stinging the recipient with unexpected import charges. - For some destinations (notably India), members report that courier options for canned beverages are severely limited; one suggestion was to fly samples in yourself. **Caveats & warnings:** - Costs are genuinely high (£50–80+ is standard); members note this feels "crazy" but appears unavoidable. - Reliability varies by destination—one member lost stock in Australia due to customs issues, and packages can get stuck and destroyed if documentation is incorrect. - **Eurosender does not handle alcohol shipments outside the EU.** - "Marking as olive oil" was mentioned in passing, but this is not recommended as it breaches customs declarations and risks seizure. - There's a recognised gap in the market for affordable alcohol sample shipping, particularly for smaller volumes and non-standard destinations.
What are the most effective and cost-efficient methods to recover unpaid invoices from UK retailers and businesses?
Members recommend a tiered approach starting with low-cost formal mechanisms before escalating to legal action. **Low-cost formal routes:** - **Moneyclaim.gov.uk** — £80 filing fee, issues a County Court Judgement (CCJ). After obtaining the CCJ, pay a further £65 for a Warrant of Recovery to have bailiffs visit the debtor. Members report this "has worked every time." Takes about 10 minutes to complete the online form. - **Gov.uk court claim facility** (https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money) — £35 to file online. The debtor receives a full court summons pack; members report payment "usually follows quite quickly." You can withdraw the action online if payment is made. **Escalation tactics:** - **Legal notice with winding-up order threat** — Members have used this against businesses that repeatedly defaulted. One member successfully recovered thousands owed by a local off-licence chain only after serving a formal winding-up notice; the business owner and sales staff subsequently faced prison time for tax evasion. - **Proof of delivery (POD) essential** — Members emphasize you must have POD documentation or formal recovery attempts are ineffective. **Important caveats:** - Small claims court and CCJ enforcement do not apply across Northern Ireland borders. - Members warned against certain suppliers who have committed fraud; a blacklist of problematic counterparties may be valuable for the community. - Members have also enquired about debt collectors but no specific recommendations were endorsed in the discussion.
What are the contact details for buying teams at major UK retailers, food halls, and pub chains?
Members have shared specific buying contacts for several major retailers and venues. Here's what the community has on file: **Retailers & Food Halls:** - **Diverse Fine Food** — Mark (mark@diversefinefood.co.uk) and Nicki (Nicki@diversefinefood.co.uk), both Directors - **Planet Organic** — Issy Turney (issy@planetorganic.com) for RTD/spirits - **Wholefoods** — Alice Fishman (Alice.Fishman@wholefoods.com) for RTD/spirits - **John Lewis Food Halls** — Uses the same buying structure as Waitrose for each category; GBExchange / Fells handle alcohol route to market to JLP - **Waitrose** — John Vine is the buyer; Lucille Kavanagh runs special event style launches and may be relevant for compelling stories - **Partridges** — Carlo is the drinks buyer (wines@partridges.co.uk or wine@partridges.co.uk); note that Partridges stock through HT Drinks and Enotria, and Carlo prefers in-person visits over email. He's often in store. **Pub Chains:** - **Urban Pubs and Bars** — Adam Donnelly (adam.donnelly@urbanpubsandbars.com) for spirits range decisions **Clearance/Closeout:** - **Heley International** — Nick L (NickL@heley-int.com) buys close-to-expiry or clearance stock **Important caveat:** Members noted that some buyers (notably Partridges' Carlo) do not respond to email and require in-person contact; visiting in store is the recommended approach. SSP and WHSmith contact details were requested but not provided in the community discussion.
What are the realistic pros and cons of selling spirits and beverages on Amazon?
Amazon makes your brand available to a huge customer base and can offer cheaper shipping than managing your own 3PL, but profitability is challenging and requires significant sustained spend on advertising and promotions. Members have learned hard lessons about the platform's dynamics. **Pros:** - **Wide reach** — puts your brand in front of millions of potential customers automatically - **Shipping economics** — can be cheaper than managing your own third-party logistics for individual orders - **Organic traffic from external brand-building** — members report that investing in consumer awareness outside Amazon (direct marketing, PR, social) drives profitable organic sales *on* Amazon without needing to throw cash at Amazon's own ad platform **Cons:** - **High advertising costs required** — you must spend heavily on Amazon's promotional tools and media to achieve meaningful volume; members report struggling to make Amazon profitable even with ad investment - **Amazon holds all the cards** — the platform controls pricing, visibility, fees, and policies in ways that can surprise you after launch; members describe "some you didn't know existed before you started" - **Very tricky unit economics** — multiple members noted they've never been able to make Amazon profitable and have actually pulled advertising spend entirely - **Brand values misalignment** — Amazon's working practices can clash with independent drinks brands' values **Key strategy:** The one member reporting strong Amazon profitability said their biggest win was **building direct consumer brand awareness away from the platform**, which then organically drove profitable sales on Amazon without relying on Amazon's own ads. This approach also builds a direct customer relationship outside the platform. Members emphasise that Amazon is a big customer for many (hard to ignore) but universally describe it as tricky to make work profitably. Several have formed a discussion group to share learnings and mistakes to avoid.