Ask the Collective
The questions independent drinks founders ask most — answered. Distilled from years of community knowledge so the good stuff never disappears in the feed again.
Should I register trademarks for sub-brands and SKU variations, or just protect the master brand?
Protect the master brand (word mark and/or logo) and skip registering individual SKU names and sub-brand variants. Members recommend registering only the core brand name with the UK IPO, which costs around £170 per application and can be done DIY via https://www.gov.uk/how-to-register-a-trade-mark — no need to pay lawyers £500+ per trademark. **Why SKU variants don't need separate protection:** - SKU names and sub-product lines (e.g. "Duppy Share Spiced" or "Duppy Share XO") are extensions of the core brand, not unique IP in themselves - If you own the master brand (e.g. "Duppy Share"), enforcement against infringement is straightforward — you own the core - Registering the master brand gives you sufficient legal protection for product line extensions **Key caveats:** - This approach is solid for UK operation. Global IP protection (EU, US, elsewhere) becomes "horribly complicated" and may require different strategy - Ensure you own both the word mark and logo for the master brand to be fully covered - Do-it-yourself registration via the IPO is described as "pretty quick and easy"
What is the best approach and cost for renewing trademark registrations in the UK and Europe?
Trademark renewal is straightforward DIY in the UK but requires more careful navigation for EU protection post-Brexit. Members report significant cost variation depending on whether you handle it yourself or use legal support. **UK trademark renewal:** - **DIY via the official UK Intellectual Property Office website** — several members completed this themselves and found it manageable with internet research; no lawyer needed - **Lawyer quotes** — expect £900 + VAT for UK-only renewal through traditional IP lawyers (though this appears on the higher end) **EU trademark renewal (post-Brexit):** - **DIY via Madrid Protocol** — members recommend registering the original trademark in the UK first, then applying for the Madrid Protocol to cover multiple countries in one application; described as "easier" than handling each country separately - **Polish lawyer option** — one member recommended a lawyer in Poland who can handle all EU countries for under £500, significantly cheaper than UK law firm quotes - **Processing time** — expect approximately 6 weeks turnaround from placing the order **Strategic considerations:** - Members suggest protecting your brand across export markets proactively, even if you haven't actively exported yet, to prevent future brand conflicts (one member cited a costly dispute when a competitor launched a similar product) - The Madrid Protocol approach allows you to cover multiple EU countries "in one hit," reducing administrative complexity **Caveat:** The lawyer quotes in the excerpts (£1,800 + VAT for UK and Europe; £900 + VAT for UK only) appear to be at the premium end; the Polish lawyer route and DIY options suggest these are not competitive market rates.
What should you do if a competitor has registered a trademark for messaging or a brand mark that you have been using since before their registration?
If a competitor has trademarked your brand's messaging or mark, act quickly—your IP is your equity. The key steps are: **Immediate actions:** - **Gather evidence** of your prior use (packaging, media coverage, marketing materials, trade show presence, etc.) and document that the competitor had not used it before their registration. Members recommend collecting as much documentation as possible—one member had around 1,000 documents evidencing their use. - **Check the registration status** and determine if it is still within the opposition period (typically around 3 months from publication), which strengthens your challenge. - **Seek legal advice immediately** from an IP lawyer to assess your options and the costs involved. **Challenge and negotiation:** - You can **challenge the award of the trademark** by submitting evidence of your prior use and their lack of use before registration. Members highlighted that this process can be lengthy and expensive—a reference case (Bacardi's challenge of an "Angels Envy" trademark) started with £600 in fees but became a protracted battle. - Some members suggest starting with an **informal email** to the competitor if you believe the infringement may not be intentional, to gauge their response before escalating to legal action. - **Weigh the cost-benefit carefully**, considering the size of your competitor and their financial resources, as legal proceedings can be time-consuming and costly. **Jurisdictional note:** US trademark law is more favorable to your position than UK/EU law, as it is based on actual usage rather than who registered first. **Warning:** This is often an infuriating and resource-heavy process; get legal counsel to confirm timelines and your best path forward.
What are the regulatory and trademark rules around spirit drink classifications, and how do companies navigate category definitions?
Spirit drink classification sits in a murky space where trademark law and industry standards don't align well. Here's what members have encountered: **Regulatory enforcement:** Enforcement typically falls to local authorities and trading standards bodies, and may only trigger if complaints reach them or major retailers like Tesco demand correct labelling. This creates a compliance gap where non-compliant products can remain on shelves unless actively challenged. **Category definition vs trademark:** The trademark system operates independently of spirit drink industry definitions, so trademark holders rarely consider (or know) the technical category rules. This mismatch means products can be registered with names that wouldn't comply with spirit drink regulations—and changing this is difficult once locked in. **Portman Group guidance:** Members were advised by the Portman Group to avoid using numbers in spirit drink names, as the average category strength is still undefined. Using a number now could later tie you to rules that contradict it if category standards solidify. **Real-world examples of the grey area:** Products like flavoured vodkas with added citric acid, and bottles marketed as one spirit category but at ABV levels that technically belong to another, have remained on shelves. Some use this ambiguity as a selling point. Retailers and regulators appear to tolerate these products unless pressured or unless consumer complaints escalate. **Key caveat:** This is uncharted territory. The overlap between trademark registration, spirit drink regulations, and enforcement discretion creates uncertainty. Members noted this would benefit from formal Kindred discussion.
How do we navigate trademark searches and avoid conflicts when naming new brands across UK, EU, and US markets?
Members emphasize doing your own trademark searches across the three main territories rather than relying solely on expensive paid databases. The practical approach: search the UK, EU, and USA trademark registers directly on their respective government platforms—this is free and thorough, though time-consuming. **Key tips from the community:** - Search both relevant trademark classes (e.g. Class 33 for spirits, Class 32 for beers) as these can overlap and cause conflicts - The USA is described as "a minefield" with very few names remaining unclaimed, so obscure or invented names tend to work better than common nouns or animal names - Avoid generic or descriptive terms; unique, quirky names face fewer obstacles - **ChatGPT** was mentioned as a helpful tool for brainstorming and refining name ideas, though it should not be relied on for trademark clearance For professional support, members recommend **United Creatives** (Manchester) and **Joe Bowker at Gorilla Studio** (Manchester) as naming/branding agencies if you want expert guidance, though these come at a cost. **Caveat:** Paid data services like IWSR can be prohibitively expensive for smaller brands. Members note that while DIY searches work, international trademark law—especially US—remains complex and evolving; if budgets allow, legal advice on final shortlist names may save headaches later.
What IP legal advisors and services do members recommend for trademark protection, patent work, and international IP disputes?
Members recommend a small number of trusted IP specialists, most commonly used for trademark protection and defending against IP infringement. The community has experience with both high-end specialist firms and broader legal networks. **Specific recommendations:** - **Marks & Clerk** — Erik at Marks & Clerk (erouk@marks-clerk.com) is noted as excellent but expensive. Members have used them for IP work. - **Kilburn Strode** — Recommended for IP specialism; members use them for this area. - **Taylor Wessing** — A senior contact available at this firm for those willing to spend significantly on premium IP advice. - **Loupe** (https://www.loupe-uk.com/) — At least one member was in discussions with them; another member was willing to compare notes on their services, though neither had fully committed at the time of discussion. - **Legal500 rankings** — Members suggest checking Legal500 (https://www.legal500.com/united-kingdom-solicitors/) to identify tier-1 firms with specific IP specialisms before engaging. **Additional context:** Members have successfully used IP advisors for trademark protection, defending against patent infringement, and handling disputes (examples mentioned include defending against Puma and helping with IP enforcement against TRX). Several members offered DMs to share specific contact details beyond what was posted publicly. For other legal needs (particularly EIS/SEIS support for early-stage companies), members also mentioned **Seed Legals** as an option, though the discussion did not provide details on their IP services specifically.
How should we respond when a large company launches a product with a confusingly similar brand name to ours?
Members' consensus is to avoid lengthy legal battles with large corporations, but use smart leverage tactics instead. Here's what the community recommends: **Assessment first:** Confirm you have a strong trademark position (registered, prior trading history). Get a quick legal opinion but don't assume you'll win a protracted fight—large companies have armies of lawyers and can outlast smaller brands through attrition. **Preferred tactics:** - **Retailer leverage:** Once the infringing product is listed with a significant customer (e.g. Waitrose), contact the retailer directly explaining the trademark dispute. Retailers will pressure the producer to avoid recall/legal risk and will often secure a written concession that it's a limited run only. - **Royalty settlement:** Request 10% royalties on sales as compensation for trademark use, with the condition they cease production under that name moving forward. This converts infringement into a negotiated benefit. - **PR-first approach:** Have your legal team send an initial letter outlining potential settlement (e.g. cease production, donate proceeds to a climate/social cause). Use your PR team to publicise the moral high ground—this embarrasses the infringer's marketing department internally and generates positive coverage. Members noted this works especially well when the community amplifies it. **Caveats:** - Don't waste energy and resources on protracted litigation unless the infringing product directly cannibalises your sales. Limited editions may actually boost brand familiarity. - Beware of Goliath-sized opponents (e.g. Asahi, Puma): even strong cases can be ground out over months, delaying your own launches and draining resources. - The initial cease-and-desist letter is a sound-out; settlement is usually faster than court.
Which IP and trademark specialists are recommended for EU, US and UAE trademark registrations?
Members recommend the following specialists for trademark and IP work: - **Trademark Direct** (info@trademarkdirect.co.uk) — recommended for EU trademark applications - **Dehns** — described as "pretty solid" for international trademark work, including US and UAE registrations. Members can request an introduction through the community The community also notes that some members handle this privately; if you need a recommendation, asking directly in the group often yields personal introductions to specialists members have worked with successfully.
What are the legal guidelines for using royal imagery, titles, and references like 'Jubilee' in beverage branding?
Members have identified official guidance from the Royal Household for using royal imagery and titles in commercial branding. - **Royal.uk official guidelines** — The Royal Household published specific guidelines for the Queen's Platinum Jubilee (available at https://www.royal.uk/sites/default/files/queens_platinum_jubilee_guidelines_2022.pdf). Members confirm you can use royal logos commercially under these guidelines, though you should consult the document for the specific terms and conditions that apply to your use case. Members recommend checking the official Royal Household documentation directly rather than relying on informal advice, as the rules are published and publicly accessible.
Should I hire a lawyer to register a trademark in the USA, and how long does the review process take?
Yes, members recommend engaging professional legal help for US trademark registration, unlike the UK and EU where many handle it themselves. The US review process is slow: **current timelines are approximately 9 months**, with the most recent applications being reviewed from March 2023 onwards at the time of discussion. This represents a significant backlog compared to other markets.
Who do members recommend for trademark registration and legal work in the EU and USA?
Members have used specialist trademark lawyers for EU and USA registration. **Clare Mann at Dehns** has been recommended as a reliable choice for this work. One member also mentioned **Franck** as having been "brilliant" for their trademark needs, though no further details on Franck's firm were provided in the discussion. Members suggest asking for referrals via direct message if you need additional contacts, as several people indicated they have trusted partners to recommend.
What firms and approaches do founders use to protect trademarks and intellectual property, and what should we consider when filing?
Members recommend engaging specialist IP law firms early to guide trademark applications and ensure broad category coverage for future product development. **Recommended IP law firms:** - **McDaniels Law** — described as very reasonable; seek a direct introduction from community members - **Howes Percival LLP** — praised as super helpful; ask them for a pre-filing report on whether your mark is trademarkable, and be clear upfront on all product categories you want to cover now and in future - **IP21** — members' go-to firm; multiple endorsements **Key considerations when filing:** - Get a trademarkability report *before* submitting your application to avoid wasting time and money - Be very clear and broad about the product categories you want to cover, thinking ahead to any future product development—this prevents having to refile later. Members emphasise that taking time upfront to define your category scope properly can save significant hassle down the line.
Where can UK and EU trademark renewal services be sourced at competitive rates?
Members report that trademark renewal costs can be high, and recommend exploring alternatives to mainstream IP firms. One member successfully used a **Polish lawyer** for EU trademark renewal and handled UK renewal themselves, and is happy to introduce other members to their Polish contact. Another member also has a recommended contact they described as "great" for this service. Members suggest reaching out directly within the community to get introductions to these cost-effective options rather than accepting initial quotes from larger firms.
Who handles trademark registrations in the UK and what is their service quality like?
Members can handle trademark registrations themselves through the government's IP/TM team, which is based in Wales. This route is significantly easier and more responsive than expected, especially compared to other government agencies like HMRC. The process is straightforward to manage independently, and the team responds promptly when needed.
What are typical costs for trademark protection across multiple countries?
Trademark protection costs vary significantly depending on whether you use professional services or file directly yourself. **Professional service costs:** - A quote of £3,000 for multi-country protection (UK, EU, Australia, and USA) was reported by a member, though they questioned whether better rates were available. **DIY filing costs:** - Filing through the **Madrid Protocol** and the **IPO (UK Intellectual Property Office)** directly can cost approximately £1,500, representing a substantial saving over professional services. Members indicated that self-filing is feasible and recommended exploring this route if you have the bandwidth to manage the application process yourself.