Ask the Collective
The questions independent drinks founders ask most — answered. Distilled from years of community knowledge so the good stuff never disappears in the feed again.
Should I register trademarks for sub-brands and SKU variations, or just protect the master brand?
Protect the master brand (word mark and/or logo) and skip registering individual SKU names and sub-brand variants. Members recommend registering only the core brand name with the UK IPO, which costs around £170 per application and can be done DIY via https://www.gov.uk/how-to-register-a-trade-mark — no need to pay lawyers £500+ per trademark. **Why SKU variants don't need separate protection:** - SKU names and sub-product lines (e.g. "Duppy Share Spiced" or "Duppy Share XO") are extensions of the core brand, not unique IP in themselves - If you own the master brand (e.g. "Duppy Share"), enforcement against infringement is straightforward — you own the core - Registering the master brand gives you sufficient legal protection for product line extensions **Key caveats:** - This approach is solid for UK operation. Global IP protection (EU, US, elsewhere) becomes "horribly complicated" and may require different strategy - Ensure you own both the word mark and logo for the master brand to be fully covered - Do-it-yourself registration via the IPO is described as "pretty quick and easy"
What are the key differences between filing a US trademark directly with the USPTO versus through WIPO/Madrid Protocol, and what proof of use is required?
The US trademark system works fundamentally differently from most other jurisdictions—it's first-to-trade rather than first-to-trademark, meaning you're not fully protected unless you're actively trading. **Filing routes and proof of use requirements:** - **WIPO/Madrid Protocol route** — Registration is loosely considered first use, and you'll need to prove use between years five and six of registration. This is the longer-term, lower-initial-risk path. - **Direct USPTO filing** — You'll need to prove use immediately, or file a contingent option (which effectively requires you to pay rent on the trademark every six months until you can prove use). This requires quicker action. - **Proof of use definition** — Proof of use must be evidence of sale of goods or promotion of goods. Simply importing into the US and movement through the chain of commerce is sufficient to make a 1(a) filing—you don't need to employ staff or be physically present in the USA. **Recommended trademark attorneys:** - **Novagraaf** (contact: Luke Portnow) — Used by multiple members globally and for US work. - **Inlex** (contact: Franck Soutoul, fsoutoul@inlex-monaco.mc) — Recommended for international trademark work. - **Lewis Silkin** — Used successfully over several years. - **Marks and Clerk** — Noted as decent but expensive. **Important caveat:** The process takes considerable time—members reported timelines of over a year for their filings. Plan ahead accordingly.
What should you do if a competitor has registered a trademark for messaging or a brand mark that you have been using since before their registration?
If a competitor has trademarked your brand's messaging or mark, act quickly—your IP is your equity. The key steps are: **Immediate actions:** - **Gather evidence** of your prior use (packaging, media coverage, marketing materials, trade show presence, etc.) and document that the competitor had not used it before their registration. Members recommend collecting as much documentation as possible—one member had around 1,000 documents evidencing their use. - **Check the registration status** and determine if it is still within the opposition period (typically around 3 months from publication), which strengthens your challenge. - **Seek legal advice immediately** from an IP lawyer to assess your options and the costs involved. **Challenge and negotiation:** - You can **challenge the award of the trademark** by submitting evidence of your prior use and their lack of use before registration. Members highlighted that this process can be lengthy and expensive—a reference case (Bacardi's challenge of an "Angels Envy" trademark) started with £600 in fees but became a protracted battle. - Some members suggest starting with an **informal email** to the competitor if you believe the infringement may not be intentional, to gauge their response before escalating to legal action. - **Weigh the cost-benefit carefully**, considering the size of your competitor and their financial resources, as legal proceedings can be time-consuming and costly. **Jurisdictional note:** US trademark law is more favorable to your position than UK/EU law, as it is based on actual usage rather than who registered first. **Warning:** This is often an infuriating and resource-heavy process; get legal counsel to confirm timelines and your best path forward.
How do we navigate trademark searches and avoid conflicts when naming new brands across UK, EU, and US markets?
Members emphasize doing your own trademark searches across the three main territories rather than relying solely on expensive paid databases. The practical approach: search the UK, EU, and USA trademark registers directly on their respective government platforms—this is free and thorough, though time-consuming. **Key tips from the community:** - Search both relevant trademark classes (e.g. Class 33 for spirits, Class 32 for beers) as these can overlap and cause conflicts - The USA is described as "a minefield" with very few names remaining unclaimed, so obscure or invented names tend to work better than common nouns or animal names - Avoid generic or descriptive terms; unique, quirky names face fewer obstacles - **ChatGPT** was mentioned as a helpful tool for brainstorming and refining name ideas, though it should not be relied on for trademark clearance For professional support, members recommend **United Creatives** (Manchester) and **Joe Bowker at Gorilla Studio** (Manchester) as naming/branding agencies if you want expert guidance, though these come at a cost. **Caveat:** Paid data services like IWSR can be prohibitively expensive for smaller brands. Members note that while DIY searches work, international trademark law—especially US—remains complex and evolving; if budgets allow, legal advice on final shortlist names may save headaches later.
Who owns the intellectual property rights to spirit recipes developed through co-packing or joint venture arrangements?
Recipe IP ownership in spirit production depends on who develops the recipe and is negotiated on a case-by-case basis. **Key ownership scenarios:** - **Distillery or consultant develops the recipe** — the distillery or consultant retains IP ownership - **Brand pays for recipe development** — the brand can own the recipe outright and take it to any distillery - **Distillery develops for you with purchase option** — some distilleries will release recipe IP to the brand after a minimum order commitment (members cited examples of 25,000 bottles as a typical threshold) **Important note:** Terms are entirely negotiable and should be clarified upfront in any co-packing or joint venture agreement. Members emphasised this is handled "on a case by case basis", so there are no fixed industry standards — secure your preferred arrangement in writing before production begins.
What firms and approaches do founders use to protect trademarks and intellectual property, and what should we consider when filing?
Members recommend engaging specialist IP law firms early to guide trademark applications and ensure broad category coverage for future product development. **Recommended IP law firms:** - **McDaniels Law** — described as very reasonable; seek a direct introduction from community members - **Howes Percival LLP** — praised as super helpful; ask them for a pre-filing report on whether your mark is trademarkable, and be clear upfront on all product categories you want to cover now and in future - **IP21** — members' go-to firm; multiple endorsements **Key considerations when filing:** - Get a trademarkability report *before* submitting your application to avoid wasting time and money - Be very clear and broad about the product categories you want to cover, thinking ahead to any future product development—this prevents having to refile later. Members emphasise that taking time upfront to define your category scope properly can save significant hassle down the line.
What are the legal guidelines for using royal imagery, titles, and references like 'Jubilee' in beverage branding?
Members have identified official guidance from the Royal Household for using royal imagery and titles in commercial branding. - **Royal.uk official guidelines** — The Royal Household published specific guidelines for the Queen's Platinum Jubilee (available at https://www.royal.uk/sites/default/files/queens_platinum_jubilee_guidelines_2022.pdf). Members confirm you can use royal logos commercially under these guidelines, though you should consult the document for the specific terms and conditions that apply to your use case. Members recommend checking the official Royal Household documentation directly rather than relying on informal advice, as the rules are published and publicly accessible.
Should I hire a lawyer to register a trademark in the USA, and how long does the review process take?
Yes, members recommend engaging professional legal help for US trademark registration, unlike the UK and EU where many handle it themselves. The US review process is slow: **current timelines are approximately 9 months**, with the most recent applications being reviewed from March 2023 onwards at the time of discussion. This represents a significant backlog compared to other markets.
Which IP and trademark specialists are recommended for EU, US and UAE trademark registrations?
Members recommend the following specialists for trademark and IP work: - **Trademark Direct** (info@trademarkdirect.co.uk) — recommended for EU trademark applications - **Dehns** — described as "pretty solid" for international trademark work, including US and UAE registrations. Members can request an introduction through the community The community also notes that some members handle this privately; if you need a recommendation, asking directly in the group often yields personal introductions to specialists members have worked with successfully.