Ask the Collective
The questions independent drinks founders ask most — answered. Distilled from years of community knowledge so the good stuff never disappears in the feed again.
Why are our RTD cans leaking, and what can liner do we need for lower pH products with salt?
Salt is highly corrosive to cans and a common cause of leaks, even when pH is above 3.0. Your canner may have incorrectly advised that liner isn't needed above pH 3—this guidance doesn't account for salt content or other corrosive compounds. **Diagnosis and testing:** - Request a **BCT (can liner) test** from your canner to identify the exact liner type currently in use and whether it's appropriate - Conduct a **physical liquid compatibility test** to confirm the product won't corrode the liner - Check for corrosion occurring from inside the can (liner failure) or outside (residue on the exterior causing inward corrosion) - Verify sulphate levels in your recipe, as these also affect corrosion risk **Liner recommendations:** - **Epoxy wine can liners** are generally the strongest option, though members have seen failures even with these when salt is present - Members report **Ardagh cans** performing better than **Ball cans** for corrosive products, though this may be liner-dependent rather than manufacturer-dependent **Key considerations:** - Even minimum salt levels in the recipe can cause problems; consider **reformulation (removing or reducing salt)** if liner upgrades don't resolve the issue - This is described as "a minefield"—close collaboration with your canner and physical testing is essential before scaling production - Have your canner revisit their liner recommendation given the presence of salt in your recipe.
Which co-packers can handle canning runs of 10,000+ litres with pasteurising capability?
Members recommend several co-packers with canning capability in the UK, though pasteurising availability varies: - **Bottled & Canned** — confirmed to offer pasteurising and canning services; members report positive experience and are running trial canning runs with them. - **Alcohol Solutions (Manchester)** — has a new canning line but does **not** have pasteurising capability in-house, so verify their full service offering before approaching. - **Spiritbridge** — mentioned as a potential option; members suggest reaching out directly for capability discussion. - **Clearly Drinks (Sunderland)** — suggested as a co-packer worth contacting. - **HCC (Hereford)** — mentioned as another option to explore. - **Envirocan** — listed as an alternative co-packer option. **Caveat:** If pasteurising is essential to your specification, confirm this explicitly with each co-packer before committing—Alcohol Solutions lacks this capability, so don't assume all canning lines include it.
What causes canned beverage leaks and seaming failures, and how can producers prevent them?
Leaking cans are a persistent quality-control challenge in canning. The root causes are multiple and often interconnected, so diagnosis and prevention require attention to several factors. **Primary causes:** - **Internal liner failure** — the most common cause of leaks - **Seam defects** — poor can seaming during the canning process itself - **External product contamination** — low-pH liquids (sub-6 pH) can corrode the unlined outside of cans over time; once one can leaks, product spreads to neighbouring cans, triggering a cascade failure (members report losing whole pallets this way) - **Carbonation levels and pasteurisation interaction** — some members solved leaks by changing recipe or adjusting carbonation; one member switched to **Jolly's** (which uses Velcorin dosing instead of pasteurisation) and resolved recurring issues - **Can stacking and storage conditions** — physical pressure during storage and shipment can accelerate failures **Prevention tactics members recommend:** - **Store sample cans upside down for a minimum of 10 days post-production** — this is the key early-warning step. Members caught a seam issue with lids from **Ardagh** only after loading a container for US shipment; upside-down storage would have flagged it before market - **Review your recipe and carbonation levels** — members found that recipe changes (including carbonation adjustment) eliminated leaks they'd previously blamed on canners - **Ask your canner about product handling** — ensure cans are not receiving external product contamination during the filling process - **Check your pasteurisation temperature and carbonation pairing** — if you pasteurise, discuss your specific temp/carbonation combo with your canner to rule out interaction issues **Canner recommendations from experience:** - **Bottled & Canned** (bottledandcanned.co.uk) — praised as "the most pro" by one member; handles low volumes (1,000–2,000L) - **Jolly's** — preferred by several members, uses Velcorin dosing; some had early leaking issues but resolved them by switching recipes - **Can It in Bolton** — described as "very good" with decent MOQs and lead times - **Ardagh** — supply can lids; at least one seaming issue reported **Caveats:** - Leaking can issues are "real and almost impossible to eliminate completely" - Multiple members reported mixed results even with the same canner (e.g., 2 SKUs fine, 1 "a total write-off" with Bottled & Canned; early leaks with Jolly's that resolved after recipe change) - Blame is often unclear — members acknowledge leaks may stem from recipe, canner process, storage, or a combination - Upside-down storage test is critical and should be mandatory before shipping
What causes cans to leak during production and how should we investigate the root cause with our co-packer?
Leaking cans are caused by multiple factors and rarely point to a single culprit. A full technical investigation is needed, as the seal itself is usually tested rigorously during production. **Common root causes members identified:** - **Exterior corrosion from low-pH products** — The outside of the can lacks the internal plastic coating protection. In acidic drinks (RTDs, ciders, low-pH beverages), the product can eat through the exterior over 6+ months, typically leaking from the top or bottom seams where water spray protection was not applied before labelling. - **Can specification or liner changes** — If the co-packer has changed the can spec, can lining, or the liner material, this can introduce compatibility issues with your product. - **Recipe or ingredient alteration** — Even minor tweaks or ingredient changes affecting acidity can trigger leaks; verify target pH levels with your recipe team. - **Production pressures or corner-cutting** — Members noted leaks occurring during can shortages (e.g. late 2023/early 2024) when manufacturing standards may have been compromised. - **First-run production** — New SKUs run for the first time carry higher risk if pre-production testing was incomplete. **Investigation approach:** - Request a full technical incident report from the co-packer documenting can supplier, liner material, production dates, and any process deviations. - Engage your can supplier, recipe/product team, and co-packer to rule out each variable systematically — each party often blames the others. - Check whether the issue affects all SKUs or just specific ones (some members saw leaks on 1 of 3 SKUs). - Document cascade failures: one leaked can can contaminate multiple cans below it in stacked pallets ("Christmas tree effect"). **Caveat:** Root cause may remain unclear even after investigation, as responsibility is often disputed across multiple parties. Members recommend proactive dialogue with your co-packer early and involvement of experienced operations staff to document findings.
What are the acceptable filling tolerances and compliance standards for 125ml canned products in the UK?
UK filling tolerances for 125ml cans are governed by the Weights and Measures Act 2006. Members report the following practical guidance: - **Tolerance range**: +/− 5g per can is typical for small-batch, manually-checked production, though each canning line operates differently—consult your co-packer on what their equipment can achieve. - **Statistical allowance**: For 125ml, one in 40 cans is permitted to be 4.5% short; effectively, no more than 9% of cans should fall below nominal fill. - **Average vs. minimum requirements**: Trading Standards require either an average of 125ml or just above across the batch (depending on your canner's method). Check with your specific co-packer whether they use average-fill or minimum-fill compliance. - **Revenue implications**: Avoid overfilling significantly; HMRC monitors for systematic overfill as it represents lost excise revenue on spirits and may trigger audit. - **Regulatory reference**: Consult the UK government guidance on Weights, Measures and Packaging at https://www.gov.uk/weights-measures-and-packaging-the-law/packaged-goods - **US comparison (FYI)**: The US tolerance is approximately +/− 2% of printed size, which is tighter than the UK allowance. **Caveats**: Each canning line has different capabilities; discuss feasibility directly with your co-packer before committing to a tolerance target.
How can we find available canning capacity when major co-packers are fully booked?
When conventional canners are at capacity, members recommend exploring alternative co-packing options. The community has identified the following: - **Drinks Chef** — recommended as a contact; email Joe at Joe@drinkschef.com to inquire about availability. - **EnviroCan** — suggested as an option; uses velcorin dosing instead of traditional pasteurisation, which may offer different scheduling flexibility. Members advised clarifying your production volumes upfront when approaching canners, as this will determine feasibility and lead times. Note that major operators like Bottled and Canned can be booked 4–6 months ahead, so contacting alternative providers early is essential for summer production windows.
Which canning co-packers can handle small to medium production runs, and what are their minimum order quantities?
The community has experience with a small number of canning co-packers for sub-50k unit runs. **Bottled and Canned** (Devon) is the most frequently mentioned option and comes recommended by several members, though quality consistency has been an issue for some—specifically carbonation levels and leaking cans. Members note the company "seems to be better than most" despite these occasional problems. For very small runs (100–125ml cans across multiple SKUs), members have indicated that custom solutions exist but require direct contact with producers who can assess timing and capacity. One member was in the process of testing a new canning partner in Glasgow for sub-50k unit runs and indicated they would report back. **Caveats:** - Quality issues are not uncommon; several members reported leaking cans and inconsistent carbonation, even with recommended suppliers. - Minimum run sizes and pricing were not explicitly detailed in community discussions—contact required for specifics. - Availability and lead times vary; timing of your run matters.
What is the current state of the UK small-scale canning market, and which co-packers are reliable for short-run 250ml slim can filling?
The UK small-scale canning market is described as 'the Wild West' with significant reliability issues. Several members have had poor experiences with co-packers and are actively seeking alternatives. **Current options for short-run 250ml slim can filling:** - **Envirocan** — mentioned as a brand-new option with quick turnaround capability, recommended for emergency runs **Market state:** - Multiple members report ongoing issues with canning co-packers, with at least one describing serious "malpractice" that caused operational disruption - Some members indicated they have canning capacity in-house but at larger volumes (250,000+ cans per SKU), suggesting capacity is fragmented - The community identified a need for dedicated peer-to-peer knowledge-sharing on canning operations and supplier reliability due to repeated problems **Caveats:** - Several members noted they cannot yet publicly name problem suppliers as they are still collecting stock or managing active relationships, but have committed to sharing details post-delivery - Capacity for sub-1,000 unit runs at short notice is severely limited; most members work at volumes significantly higher than 3–5k units - Members are actively exploring creating a dedicated subgroup for canning/production operations chat to collectively track supplier performance and share experiences
What are the best canning services for small-run cocktail RTD production in the UK?
Members recommend contacting specialist canners directly for small-format runs (100–125ml cans). **Point Cocktails** and **The M That Can** (themthatcan.com) have both been mentioned as options capable of handling small batch cocktail canning. These appear to be the go-to contacts for producers looking to can ready-to-drink cocktails in limited quantities. Contact them directly to discuss your specific volume and format requirements.
Which co-packers can handle small-volume canning runs with a 1000-litre minimum order in 250ml cans?
Several co-packers in the UK specialise in small-run canning at or near the 1000-litre MOQ level: - **Cannify** (London Bridge) — mentioned as capable of small volume runs. Website: https://canifycanning.com - **Drinks Chef** — Joe offers small-run canning. Contact: Joe@drinkschef.com - **Bottled and Canned** — explicitly state 1000L as their minimum volume run. Members report positive experience working with them on multiple runs. Contact via DM for details. Members recommend reaching out directly to confirm current MOQ and lead times, as these can vary.
What are the practical options for filling and sealing a small number of sample cans for mock-ups and testing?
Members shared two main approaches for small-batch sample can production: - **Relabelling existing cans** — Several members reported this as the most practical route for very small quantities, keeping costs and complexity low. - **Gorilla slim-end canner** — One member owns a can seaming machine and has successfully used it to produce small sample batches at their bar. They indicated willingness to sell the equipment if someone is interested; contact details are on file with the community. For those looking to invest in equipment rather than outsource, a tabletop seaming machine like the Gorilla model appears to be the go-to choice among members producing low volumes.
What is the most cost-effective way to produce small quantities of sample cans (e.g. 100–150) with sealed liquid?
For small-batch sample cans, members suggest two practical routes: - **Partner with a local craft brewery** — The most straightforward approach is to befriend a nearby craft brewery and ask them to run a small batch for you. They have the canning equipment and may be willing to do a short run, though this works best if your can size (e.g. 150ml) matches equipment they already have. - **Partner with a local RTD cocktail producer** — Members mentioned reaching out to established RTD (ready-to-drink) drinks companies in your region as an alternative. These producers typically have flexible canning lines and experience with small-batch orders. Members noted that hand crimpers to manually seal cans are theoretically possible but appear to be rarely used in practice; befriending existing producers is the go-to tactic rather than investing in bespoke equipment for a one-off sample run. **Caveat:** Can size (150ml vs standard sizes) can be a constraint—smaller or non-standard formats may be harder to source from established producers, so confirm they have the right tooling before approaching.
Where can we find 330ml can filling services?
Members needing urgent canning services have recommended the following contacts: - **joe@drinkschef.com** — recommended for 330ml can filling - **Simon Attfield, Attfield Design** (https://www.attfield-design.com/) — described as very good and very cost effective; note that contact was in the US until Friday (timing dependent on when this was written) If you need to contact these services, it's worth mentioning any urgent timelines upfront, as filling capacity can be tight at short notice.
What should you look for when finding a co-packer or canner, and which suppliers do members recommend?
When sourcing a co-packer or canner, define your specific technical requirements upfront—minimum order quantities, carbonation/nitrogen needs, pasteurisation, blending/filtering capabilities, and labelling preferences—then reach out to vetted suppliers in the community. Members recommend: - **Bottled & Canned** (shaun@bottledandcanned.co.uk) — praised for being great to work with and capable of handling non-carbonated products with nitrogen dosing, pasteurisation, mixing/blending, filtering, and hibiscus-compatible work - **Drayhorse Canning** — can handle approximately 14mm cans annually with competitive pricing; contact nate@drifterspirits.com to set up an introductory call with their team Key considerations members highlighted: clarify your MOQ (one member sought 1,000-litre minimums), confirm pasteurisation capability, ensure they can handle specialty ingredients like hibiscus, and verify label-over-can options if needed. Members suggested reaching out directly to suppliers with a detailed technical spec sheet rather than searching broadly, as capabilities vary significantly.
What are the options for canning small volumes (under 10k cans) of ready-to-drink products?
Members have identified several co-packers willing to work on low MOQs for canning RTD products. The key constraint is that most require finished product (post-carbonation) rather than offering blending services. - **Point Cocktails** — contact Hayden; members report willingness to work on low-volume projects - **Can It (Bolton)** — successfully worked with members on 4,000 cans per SKU; offers fast turnaround (approximately 2 weeks) but requires finished product delivered in IBC format rather than blending in-house; no carbonation capability, so carbonation must be completed before delivery - **Bottled & Canned** — mentioned as a potential option for low-MOQ canning - **MC/Bibendum** — reported to be "great" for small runs, though no specific MOQ details were shared **Key limitation:** Most canners on low MOQs do not offer product blending. You'll need to deliver finished, carbonated product in IBC containers, which they then fill into cans. This means you must handle carbonation separately before sending to the canner. Plan accordingly for your production timeline.
Where can I find a UK canning facility that handles small-scale production (under 1000 litres) with full capabilities including mixing, carbonation, canning, pasteurisation and labelling?
Members recommend **Point Cocktails** (contact: Hayden) as a viable option for small-scale canning in the UK. The facility has been described positively by community members who have used them and can handle the full range of services needed—mixing, carbonation, canning, pasteurisation and labelling—for batches under 1000 litres.
What tabletop canning equipment is available for small-volume, non-carbonated canning operations?
For small-volume non-carbonated canning, members suggest checking with established breweries in the network who may have spare equipment available for purchase or hire. **Canopy** (via contact Estelle) has been mentioned as a potential resource. Additionally, **The Hide** may have spare tabletop canning equipment available post-lockdown that could be purchased. The community recommends reaching out directly to members with existing setups rather than purchasing new equipment outright, as this is often more cost-effective for small-scale operations. No specific off-the-shelf tabletop canning machines were named in discussions, suggesting the community tends to source used equipment or borrow/hire from established operators.