Ask the Collective
The questions independent drinks founders ask most — answered. Distilled from years of community knowledge so the good stuff never disappears in the feed again.
Where can members source packaging components (cardboard cases, cans, bottles, closures, cups) and what are typical pricing, MOQs and lead times?
Members source cardboard cases through Playford at approximately 30p per unbranded case plus 20p for inserts (4-colour print, double-walled board, suitable for courier); MOQ is typically 5,000 units. For cans, 250ml slim cans and 200ml cans are currently difficult to source; members recommend asking in the group as some hold stock. For small-quantity glass bottles, members work with Verallia/Allied in Leeds (contact Elle Prescott at fiona.prescott@verallia.co.uk, preferred over Nolan Kane who is slow). For 5cl PET/RPET bottles, members recommend Diamond, Future Pro, Hutch, and Fodabox; however, Future Pro reportedly has high prices. For custom corks and closures, members warn that Labrenta and Berlin have massive lead times (5–6 months); members are seeking alternatives but specific options are limited. For branded eco-friendly cups, members used Cupprint successfully. For urgent stock and specialist items (ROPP caps, bottle stoppers, closures), members recommend reaching out directly to the group as availability is unpredictable and lead times are often extended across suppliers. Logistics: standard 20ft containers hold 10 pallets of bottles. For EU/international shipments, use forwarders like Mannson who handle both Far East and European road freight and can advise on Brexit customs paperwork.
Are there reliability issues with flexihex flap boxes, and does the supplier matter?
Most members report flexihex flap boxes work reliably, but occasional issues do occur—typically depending on where you source them. Since the design was sold, not all boxes are equal in quality. **Sourcing recommendations:** - **Buy direct from the manufacturer** — members who source directly report the most reliable performance and no issues - **Kite** — reported as working fine with no problems - **Rajapack** — some members have had success, but others report their boxes occasionally need reinforcement; if sourcing here, consider adding tape as backup **Risk mitigation:** Members recommend using tape on flexihex boxes as a safety measure, even if you haven't experienced failures. Several note they add tape "just to be safe" regardless of source, and some suspect occasional "dud batches" may occur. The added tape cost is minimal compared to the risk of flaps opening in transit or on shelf.
Where can we source standard off-the-shelf 6-bottle wine cardboard cases with reasonable lead times?
Several suppliers offer off-the-shelf wine cases, though lead times vary significantly. Members have identified the following options: - **Smurfitt Kappa** (Holland) — offers a "premium" service for standard unbranded cases with a 5-week lead time. Contact: sonja.romeijn-velderman@smurfitkappa.nl - **Kite** — recommended as a good option for stock availability on standard cases - **Rajapack** — mentioned as an alternative, though recent stock availability was reported as limited - **Davpack** — suggested as another potential supplier - **Boxes Direct** — members have used this as a stopgap supplier for online orders (www.boxesdirect.co.uk) - **WBC** (Wine Bottle Cases) — offers pallets of 6-bottle budget transit cases available in bulk, including fold-up options (https://www.wbc.co.uk/offers/bulk-buy/6-bottle-budget-transit-pallet-bulk-buy/) **Caveat:** Even for standard, unbranded cases, lead times remain long (5 weeks minimum reported). Stock availability fluctuates, so checking directly with suppliers for current availability is essential before committing to orders.
What are the best courier services and packaging methods for shipping cases of liquid products with minimal breakages?
Members recommend a combination of courier choice and robust packaging to minimise breakages on case shipments. Courier options vary by volume and geography: **For parcels (up to 12 bottles/small consignments):** - **Parcelforce** — consistently praised as reliable and cheaper than alternatives; air pack bottles inside cases to reduce movement - **FedEx** — effective but variable by local depot; experience can be "luck of the draw" - **Gophr** — recommended for London deliveries - **APC** — recommended for national coverage **For larger consignments (multi-box/8–10 cases):** - **Parcelforce** — proving solid and consistent; cheaper option - **FedEx** — works well but quality varies by local depot - **DHL** — usable but requires "bomb-proof" packing; historical high breakage rates (50%+) reported on specific postcodes (e.g. Edinburgh), though this may be depot-dependent **Packaging specifics:** - Use **double-walled/fluted cases** for added protection - One member specified: **BC flute 200 kraft outer with 80 B flute/80 liner/80 C flute and 200 inner liner** for their boxes - **Air packing** inside bottles significantly reduces breakages **Key warnings:** - Some postcodes have "rogue drivers" and higher theft/breakage rates; consider switching couriers if a postcode consistently underperforms - Courier quality is inconsistent and can depend heavily on the individual depot and handler - Some breakage is inevitable even with best practice; one member noted they "always will be some breakages" - Theft has been reported (contents replaced entirely in extreme cases) **For pallet configurations:** Members referenced **https://www.gigacalculator.com/calculators/pallet-calculator.php** as a tool for determining layouts for specific bottle sizes like 35cl.
What bottle cap suppliers offer branded closures for 500ml bottles with competitive MOQs and pricing?
For branded 500ml bottle caps, members recommend exploring a handful of established suppliers, though MOQs remain a challenge across the industry. **Recommended suppliers:** - **Bruno Erben** — used by members for closures; described as efficient - **Berlin Packaging** — noted as potentially more affordable than some competitors depending on closure type, though MOQs are higher. (Note: members clarified that Bruni and Berlin Packaging are the same company) - **Pelliconi** — familiar to members from previous bottle purchases, but MOQs are acknowledged to be large - **Patteson Glass** — specifically praised for low MOQ options on both bottles and caps **Pricing context:** One member shared their recent quote (60K @ £31.50/k, 120K @ £22.35/k, 240K @ £14.75/k) as a benchmark for comparison. **Key caveat:** Large MOQs are structural across the industry — even suppliers positioned as "low MOQ" alternatives tend to have higher minimums than ideal for smaller producers. Members recommend getting direct quotes from multiple suppliers to compare against your specific requirements.
How do wax seals perform on bottles from environmental and production perspectives?
Wax seals add artisanal appeal but present significant production challenges unless scaled cost-effectively. Environmental credentials are unclear and warrant direct customer validation. **Production considerations:** - Hand-dipping is labour-intensive but feasible at smaller scales; **Maker's Mark** demonstrates the approach works at volume with viral-worthy hand-dipping production footage - Automation exists but requires investment to justify cost-effectively - Staff can find the work satisfying (one member's 81-year-old production manager considers it their favourite part of production), but it's time-consuming - Members warned the work "is not too bad" but "hard work" — only worthwhile if the premium justifies the labour cost **Branding and market risks:** - **Sipsmith** ditched wax seals in a recent bottle redesign (reported in just-drinks); research their reasoning before committing - Red wax risks trademark issues if it closely resembles **Maker's Mark**'s signature dipped bottle - Shelf appearance and consumer perception vary; one member advises testing mockups with your ideal customers before committing **Commercial opportunities:** - Members suggest offering distillery tour experiences where customers hand-dip their own bottles as a premium add-on revenue stream **Environmental angle:** The excerpts do not contain substantive discussion of wax seals' environmental impact. If sustainability is your primary driver, validate claims and customer perception before investing in the process.
Which label suppliers do members recommend for glass bottles, and what are their contact details?
Members recommend several reliable label suppliers for glass bottles with competitive pricing: - **MCC** — frequently recommended by multiple members - **Label Apeel** — noted as having done "quite a bit of work with other Kindreds" - **Berkshire Labels** — established supplier in the network - **Vale Labels** — used by at least one member - **Reflex** (contact: saral@reflexlabelplus.co.uk) — praised for competitive pricing ("a little cheaper than Berkshire") and responsiveness; Sara at Reflex is noted as "awesome" and has helped members with tight deadlines Members suggest tendering across these suppliers to compare pricing and capability for front, back, and neck labels on glass bottles.
What are the options for overprinting or digitally finishing existing can inventory?
Members explored digital printing as an alternative to relabelling canned inventory, but the discussion revealed limited practical experience and significant logistical challenges with the main alternative, sleeving. **Digital printing over existing cans** — Members asked about this option but no one in the group reported successful direct experience with digital overprinting cans. This remains an unproven route within the community. **Can sleeves** — **Berkshire Labels** offers sleeving services. However, members strongly cautioned against this approach despite its theoretical appeal: - Sleeving introduces severe logistical friction: cans must be sent from the bottler to a specialist sleever, then returned (typically 2 weeks turnaround), then prepped and filled. This creates two sets of logistics costs. - The economics don't work: sleeve cost (10–12p) plus application cost (10p) totals 20–22p pure additional spend, versus the savings on the can itself being negligible. - Very few manufacturers can sleeve and fill in-house, forcing inventory to move between multiple facilities. - Member verdict: "Sleeves = hell" and the process is described as money-wasted versus digital print alternatives. **Overlabelling** — One member mentioned trying this (overlabelling cans with a new label), but reported it was "not a success" and cautioned it may not deliver the desired result. The overall consensus is that neither sleeving nor overlabelling have proven reliable or cost-effective within the group's experience, and direct digital overprinting of cans remains untested.
Where can I find custom glass bottle manufacturers in China who offer decoration and work with small minimum order quantities?
Members recommend direct contact with established Chinese glass bottle suppliers. The specific contact shared was: - **Xilong Glass** — Contact Rachel Li at +86 180 6980 2136, or visit https://www.xilongglass.com. Members noted they can handle custom decoration and deliver bottles in assembled cardboard cases, which protects them during transport and saves assembly time on the bottling line. One member flagged that quality issues can occur, and freight/exchange rate risk are factors to consider when sourcing from China. Members also indicated they have personal contacts within their networks who specialise in this area and are willing to make introductions — reach out directly to discuss your requirements and MOQ needs.
What are typical fulfilment and packaging costs for direct-to-consumer bottle orders in the UK?
Members report D2C fulfilment costs for a standard 70cl bottle shipped to mainland UK typically range from **£4.84 to £5.20 per order**, excluding shipping (or sometimes including it—clarify with your provider). Costs vary significantly depending on whether the supplier is bonded. Specific providers members use: - **The PHL Group** — £4.84 per order, non-bonded fulfilment - **Codestorm** — similar pricing to PHL Group (£4.84–£5+), with standing monthly charges; members report orders average just over £5 when accounting for the monthly fee - **Law** — approximately £7.80, but this is from bond (bonded storage/fulfilment), which explains the higher cost **Caveats:** Bonded fulfilment is notably more expensive than non-bonded. Most quotes include a standing monthly charge on top of per-order fees—factor this into your average cost calculation. One member mentioned cutting **Fodafilment** and indicated their "final offer" pricing was available if needed, suggesting some room for negotiation. Always confirm whether quoted costs include shipping or are fulfilment-only.
Should we use 6-bottle or 12-bottle cases for packaging?
The choice between 6-bottle and 12-bottle cases depends primarily on your target market and logistics costs. **6-bottle cases** are the more popular standard in the UK market and what most customers expect. **12-bottle cases** are used by some members, particularly those selling into the US market. The key financial consideration: if your logistics provider charges by the case and doesn't reduce costs proportionally for 6-bottle cases, a 12-bottle format may be more economical. However, if they charge roughly half for a 6-bottle case, the 6-bottle format is usually preferable. Most UK-focused businesses are standardising on 6s for 700ml bottles, though some operations run both formats depending on market.
What quality issues should we be aware of when sourcing glass bottles from Chinese suppliers?
Members report consistent quality problems with Chinese glass suppliers that require careful vetting. **Greasy bottles** are a frequent issue—several members experienced bottles arriving with a greasy residue requiring machine washing before use. **Inconsistent neck sizes** is another documented problem, leading to leaking bottles when caps or stoppers don't fit properly. **Poor stopper quality** has also been noted alongside the bottle defects. Members have identified some Chinese suppliers worth investigating or avoiding: - **Xuzhou Moaya Glass** — used by at least one member; experienced the greasy bottle and poor stopper issues mentioned above - **Xilong, Rockwood, and Fusion** — mentioned in prior community research on Chinese glass suppliers - **Rawlings and Couch** — one member asked for feedback and contact details, suggesting this supplier was being evaluated The consensus is that success stories do exist with Chinese suppliers, so reliable options are out there, but thorough supplier vetting is essential to eliminate unreliable ones from your shortlist. Members recommend checking references and samples carefully before committing to larger orders.
What are the pros and cons of cellulose-based plant-based capsule closures for bottle sealing, and what are the regulatory and retail listing implications?
Cellulose-based plant closures are a plastic-free, compostable sealing option, but they come with handling challenges and significant retail compliance risks. **Suppliers and product specifics:** - **Viscose** — the main UK supplier mentioned. They produce cellulose capsules made from wood pulp fibres that are plastic-free and compostable (decompose in soil within four months). They're supplied "moist" in bulk containers (described as "commercial-sized baked bean tins"). Several members have trialled these successfully. **How they work:** - Shrink naturally at room temperature as they dry, or you can use a heater to speed up the process - Require careful handling — "not the easiest to handle" but deliver good results when managed properly **Critical retail compliance issue:** - **Major Tesco red-list problem:** These capsules are on Tesco's packaging red list (their exclusion list for suppliers wanting listings). Tesco flags them as a contamination risk to recycling waste streams because they are neither traditional plastic nor certified compostable in their systems. This is a significant barrier if Tesco listing is a business goal. - Members who discovered PLA versions were also red-listed moved to rPET alternatives from Viscose instead **Key takeaway:** Cellulose closures work well operationally but check Tesco's current packaging requirements (2024) before committing if retail distribution is planned.
Which UK contract fillers and suppliers offer 50ml bottle filling services?
Several members in the collective offer 50ml contract filling as a service. The best approach is to reach out directly via DM to discuss your specific requirements. For glass bottles, members recommend: - **Saverglass** — George is the UK rep; contact: gwp@saverglass.com, 07576670584 - **Croxsons** — holds most of Saverglass's range and can supply bottles - **A E Chapman** — close relationship with Saverglass, can also supply Members note that direct outreach to community members who offer the service is often the quickest route to discussion and quoting.
What are the minimum order quantities and pricing for aluminium bottles from European suppliers?
European aluminium bottle suppliers have very high MOQs. Members report contact with suppliers in Holland via business connections. **MOQ is 100,000 units unprinted and 300,000 units for printed bottles** — substantially higher than many spirits founders can accommodate for early-stage products. For reference, **Trivium Packaging** (triviumpackaging.com) was mentioned as a supplier option, though specific pricing and MOQ details were not shared in discussion. Members noted there are "grey areas" around aluminium bottle supply, though the nature of these concerns was not elaborated. Charlie Turner at Penrhos Gin (charlie@penrhosspirits.co.uk) was identified as a contact using aluminium bottles, though he was reportedly reluctant to share supplier details.
Where can I find UK printers offering fast turnaround times for small promotional print jobs like A5 leaflets and branded items?
Members recommend several London-based printers specialising in quick turnarounds for small promotional items and leaflets: - **Minuteman Press** — multiple locations (not all central), praised for speed and reliability - **East End Printers** (eastendprinters.co.uk) — described as cost-effective and quick - **Kall Kwik St James** (www.kallkwikstjames.london, Kay@kkstjames.london) — reliable same-day option - **First Point Print** (firstpointprint.co.uk, +44 20 7828 0515, contact Graham) — recommended for quick jobs - **Arch 5 Design** (London Bridge location) — suggested for A5 leaflets Members note these are primarily London-focused options. No specific turnaround times or pricing were shared in the discussion, so contact directly for your requirements.
What QR code tools should we use for packaging, and what pitfalls should we avoid?
When selecting a QR code solution for packaging, avoid reliance on third-party forwarding services—if the company goes out of business, your links die. Instead, use established platforms that don't depend on redirect services: - **Adobe** — provides free QR codes with no time limits and no forwarding dependency - **Shopify** — offers free QR code generation without time-based expiration - **Google Analytics** — can function as a forwarding service, allowing you to change where a QR code points after generation and measure click-through data - **Canva** — members noted QR code functionality is available **Key caveat:** Many free QR code services expire codes after a period unless you pay for an upgrade (£5–£60 per month pricing reported). This is critical for packaging with a long shelf life. Always verify the terms before committing—check whether codes are permanent or time-limited, especially if printing them on stock you plan to distribute over months or years.
How do you prevent cork bottles from popping or corks lifting during shipping to warm climates?
Cork bottles are prone to cork lift and popping in heat due to the vacuum inside the bottle and liquid expansion. Members who experienced this (particularly when shipping to warm regions like Taiwan and the Philippines) shared several practical solutions: - **Shrink caps** — upgrade from paper tamper labels to full plastic shrink caps to seal the cork entirely. Paper seals alone are insufficient; one member reported a cork popping off a sample bottle in the Philippines despite using paper seals. - **Horizontal storage** — store bottles on their sides during shipping so the cork stays damp and has greater friction against the bottle neck. This is an old-school approach (Schweppes historically used skittle-shaped bottles to force horizontal storage). - **Temperature-controlled shipping** — use refrigerated or temperature-controlled container services, though members noted this increases shipping costs significantly. **Caveats:** Even with precautions, heat-related cork lift can damage retail presentation (one member's products arrived on Taiwan shelves with visibly lifted corks, though they didn't fully pop). If you ship to consistently hot climates without these measures, expect potential losses. Insurance may not cover bottle damage from pressure-related issues, so clarify your policy in advance.
Where can UK drinks producers source packaging stock like bottles, corks, and cans from other producers or suppliers?
Members have identified several specific sources for secondary packaging stock, both from industry liquidations and specialist suppliers: **Stock clearance opportunities:** - **Brittains closure stock** — One member had 100,000 corks available (40mm x 12mm, dark wood, natural cork shank 18.5mm, made for herbalist bottles) sourced from Brittains' closure - **Brew and Bottle liquidation** — 100k x 150ml cans available from this company going into liquidation - **Peer-to-peer sourcing** — Members regularly post urgent needs (e.g., 35cl personalised bottles for Christmas orders, 20ml/25ml bottles, white flint Kelfa Apotheker or Herbalist 70cl bottles) in the group; sometimes other members have surplus stock to offload **Specialist packaging suppliers:** - **Propak** — Recommended for branded items like jiggers - **Xilong** (Far East option; +86 182 5869 2627, http://www.xilong-glass.com) — Used occasionally for minis and first runs of new SKUs due to cheap set-up costs. However, members warned that quality control is poor (bottle variance/tolerance greater than European suppliers), bottles often arrive dirty, fill levels vary, payment is upfront (poor cash flow vs. UK terms), and shipping delays eliminate cost savings unless budget allows air freight. Rachel is the contact. Members noted they've since moved all formats back to UK production. **Service providers offering contract solutions:** - **Gorilla Spirits** (near Basingstoke; https://gorillaspirits.co.uk/contract-distilling-bottling/) — Offers production and contract bottling capacity Members emphasise: always check the Kindred group first for liquidation stock and peer offers before placing orders elsewhere. Far East sourcing has hidden costs and cash-flow penalties that often outweigh initial price savings.
Which UK courier services are most reliable for shipping beverages with minimal damage and lost items?
There's no perfect courier—reliability is highly postcode and driver dependent. However, members consistently recommend **DPD** as the best option for direct-to-consumer (DTC) shipping, with most reporting few missing packages and reliable service. **Royal Mail** is also praised for reliability, though costs per order are rising. Members previously used **APC** but reported frequent damage and lost items. The critical factor is **robust packaging**—members emphasise this is more economical than accepting damages. Recommendations include using a secondary delivery box and investing heavily in protective packaging and labour costs; one member's A/B testing at a previous company proved improved packaging was cheaper than paying for breakage claims. **DPD** pairs well with over-engineered packaging for best results. For larger operations, consider working with a consolidator or 3PL (third-party logistics) who manage courier selection and damage mitigation on your behalf. **Caveat:** Every member stressed that courier performance varies significantly by area and individual driver, so local testing is essential before committing to volume.
What are the EPR thresholds and exemptions for packaging in the UK?
The UK's Extended Producer Responsibility (EPR) scheme has a **dual threshold exemption**: you must be over **£1m in annual turnover AND produce over 25 tonnes of packaging waste** to be in scope. If you fall below either threshold, you're exempt. - **Threshold detail**: 25 tonnes of packaging waste equates to approximately 41,000 glass bottles at 600g each. This applies at the **manufacturer level**, not the distributor or wholesaler level—so many smaller brands remain exempt even if their products are distributed by larger wholesalers or traded distributors who themselves exceed the threshold. - **Implementation timeline**: A Designated Managing Organisation (DMO) is being appointed in April, with fees becoming volume-based and applying from **27 October** onwards. At that point, all producers, wholesalers, and other supply-chain participants above the exemption threshold must be registered. - **Official guidance**: The government's full guidance is available at gov.uk/guidance/extended-producer-responsibility-for-packaging-who-is-affected-and-what-to-do **Note**: The exemption structure means the threshold is clearer for manufacturers than for other actors in the supply chain (wholesalers, distributors), and members confirmed the manufacturer-level application of the thresholds.
What shipping couriers and packaging solutions best protect bottles from breakage?
Courier choice matters less than packaging robustness—members report breakages with most carriers eventually, so invest in protective packaging first, then select couriers on price and service. **Courier recommendations:** Royal Mail Tracked works well for single bottles with very few breakages reported; FedEx, Parcelforce, and DPD are preferred for multi-box consignments. DPD offers good end-customer experience but requires very secure packaging (members have observed rough handling in vans). APC has seen recent breakage issues for some members. UPS, DHL, APC, DX, and DX all perform adequately at different times. **Packaging solutions:** - **WBC Pulp-Safe boxes** (https://wbc.co.uk/protective-packaging/drinks-transit-packaging/oversized-spirit-bottle-boxes/1-spirit-bottle-pulpsafe-shipping-box-pk-24/) — described as "almost indestructible" even with rough handling and survive conveyor belt abuse reliably - **Flexi-Hex boxes and sleeves** — "pretty damn bomb proof"; the traditional pinch-top style is higher quality than newer pop-up versions - **Kite boxes with Flexi-Hex sleeve combo** — cheaper option; "cheap and cheerful" but functional - **Forms Plus with Flexi-Hex pop-up box and sleeve combo** — more convenient but pricier; Forms Plus may offer email quotes with discounts (£25+ off observed) if you're registered with them. Caveat: Quality of Forms Plus pop-up boxes is reportedly now comparable to Kite (budget tier). **Bottom line:** Members recommend prioritising bullet-proof packaging (Pulp-Safe or Flexi-Hex) over courier selection, then securing competitive rate cards with suitable insurance.
Where can we source 330ml NRB green glass bottles, and what are the typical costs and lead times for bespoke large-volume glass bottle orders?
For standard 330ml NRB green glass bottles, members suggest starting with established bottling companies and distributors: **Clearly Drinks** (Sunderland) and **HCC** (Hereford) are recommended as starting points. For canning/bottling trials, **Bottled & Canned** and **Envirocan** are mentioned. For large-volume bespoke bottles, members use these manufacturers: - **Verallia** — regularly used by multiple members - **Vetroelite** — recommended by several members; Italian supplier (vetreriaetrusca.it) - **Brunei Urban** — in use by community members - **Allied** — described as competitive choice with good reputation - **OI** — available but note 24-month lead time - **Kefla**, **Vetro**, and **Herastnik** — also mentioned as options Typical costs and MOQs for bespoke bottles: tooling/molds typically run £15–30k with minimum orders of 25–40k units. Members recommend speaking directly to **Nolan** (contact shared privately within group). **Murphy and Sons** noted for competitive pricing, though slower lead times. Caveats: Large-volume bespoke orders require significant upfront tooling investment and long lead times. OI specifically flagged for 24-month lead times. Smaller-scale needs may be better served by trial services like Bottled & Canned.
Is it worth launching mini or sample-size bottles as a trial/sampling product, given packaging and distribution costs?
Mini bottles are **not a reliable profit driver** but can work in specific contexts if margins are managed carefully and customer acquisition costs justify the tactic. **Key findings from member experience:** - **5cl mini bottles** — Generally loss-making for direct consumer trial online; members tested them for CAC reduction without sufficient impact to justify the cost. However, they do drive sampling at a few pence per serve (vs £1+ per serve in other channels), which can be worthwhile tactically. - **20cl bottles** — The more viable size; some success with luxury hospitality (e.g. rum for hotel mini bars), though margins remain thin. - **Half-size (375ml) bottles** — Better margin than 5cl; work well for D2C as "handbag size" gifts and off-trade channels. Useful as a "gateway option." One member noted they've stocked half-sizes for years with good uptake in these channels. - **Gift packs (3–4 SKUs)** — More promising than individual minis; good for D2C and reducing customer trading-down from full bottles. - **In-person trial over online** — Members found direct tasting (in-store, face-to-face) consistently outperformed online mini-bottle drops for driving conversion and reducing CAC. **Caveats:** - **Never launch more than two size variants** — Member warned this becomes "absolutely lethal" operationally. - **Watch the channel** — Duty-free (e.g. airport) and big corporate buyers (e.g. Beams, Gift Creations) often demand 70% duty-free and 35% distributor margin, making minis a loss-leader; only worthwhile if trial/volume justifies it. - **Avoid cannibalisation** — One member deliberately avoids selling individual 5cl minis in their own shops to prevent customers trading down from 70cl bottles. - **Test before scaling** — If you can achieve low MOQ, it's worth testing; if manufacturing is a hassle, stick to selling the full-size bottle.
Where can I source low MOQ aluminium can printing trials?
Members recommend **NoMOQ** (https://www.nomoq.com) for aluminium can print trials with no minimum order quantity. You can order as few as 1–2 cans to test how colours and designs appear on aluminium before committing to a full production run. Orders can be placed via their website and are described as very affordable.
Where can wine bottle closures (shrink capsules and Vinolok) be sourced, particularly in the UK?
Members are actively seeking alternatives to traditional suppliers due to price pressures. **Bruni** has recently increased prices by 25%, prompting searches for other PVC/PET shrink capsule manufacturers. **Seven Tails** closures are sourced through **La Martiniques** in France, where they are assembled; this supplier offers competitive pricing on bulk orders due to aggregated buying across multiple brand labels. For **Vinolok** closures specifically, members have mentioned sourcing from **Berlin** (likely referring to a German supplier, though details are limited). **Prowein** (the trade show) has been referenced as a venue where members have made valuable supplier connections and visited facilities. For logistics support, **Hillebrand** (contact: diana.estelanecochea@hillebrandgori.com) has been used successfully for international shipments, including samples to Italy and shipments to Dubai, at approximately £100 for 2 × 70cl bottles from London. **UPS** is another option members have used for sample shipments. Members suggest coordinating shipment costs with peers attending Prowein to split shipping expenses.
What packaging and courier strategies reduce breakage rates when shipping glass bottles?
Breakage during courier delivery is a major issue for distributors; rates commonly range from 2–27% depending on courier choice and packaging approach. The difference between carriers is dramatic, and packaging specification matters significantly. **Packaging approach:** - **Double-walled cardboard boxes** with custom-fitted inserts are the baseline; members report this alone does not guarantee low breakage - **Ezee International Packaging inserts** — recommended by members achieving lower breakage rates; used alongside double-walled boxes - **Custom-made, heavily reinforced boxes** — one member reports achieving ~2% smash rate at Pinkster with
What are the best low-MOQ packaging suppliers for bespoke bottles, labels, and gift packaging?
Members have successfully found bespoke packaging and labels from suppliers willing to work with small minimum order quantities. Here are the specific suppliers the community recommends: - **Printed Easy** — praised for simple, no-fuss approach to small MOQs; clarify your finish requirements (e.g. foil, embossing) before approaching - **Dairi Pak** — recommended for low-MOQ packaging - **The Packaging Experts** (thepackagingexperts.co.uk) — listed as a resource for packaging solutions Members note that when approaching suppliers, be clear about your finish specifications (foil, embossing, etc.) as this affects lead times and pricing. The community is active in sharing direct supplier contacts privately, so asking in the group for referrals to specific makers they've used (with request for turnaround times) tends to yield faster results than cold outreach.
What are the current MOQs and where can we source printed and wrapped RTD cans in the UK?
Printed cans currently have very high minimum order quantities—members report that printed options are difficult to access under 300,000 units, making them impractical for many small producers right now. For wrapped and labelled cans at more manageable volumes, the picture is better: - **Wrapped/labelled cans** — Achievable from around 12,000 units upwards; several members confirmed this is viable and indicated willingness to share specific supplier contacts direct message. - **Oasthouse** — Named as a potential supplier, though members also flagged significant operational challenges; one noted "Oasthouse are generally a nuisance to deal with" and another reported that Bloody Drinks had "a nightmare" going through them. Use with caution. - **Crown** — Previously used by members but their MOQs were reported as "getting crazy earlier this year," making them less competitive. - **Ball** — Members asked for contacts but no specific feedback was provided in the discussion. **Key caveat:** The printed-can market is tight right now. Members described it as "a nightmare" and advised that achieving true printed cans under 300,000 units is "very tough" or not currently possible. Wrapped or labelled alternatives are the realistic short-term option for smaller runs.
Where can we source tamper-proof seals and heat-shrink caps for spirits bottles?
Members recommend reaching out directly within the community for supplier contacts, as several people have established relationships with tamper-proof seal and heat-shrink cap providers. **Direct peer introductions** — Multiple members indicated they have good contacts for tamper-proof seals and heat-shrink cap styles. The recommended approach is to message these members directly for introductions. **Existing inventory** — Members occasionally have surplus glass, stoppers, and heat-shrink supplies available from previous large-volume purchases, which can be sourced at cost-plus pricing. These are typically held in warehouse stock (e.g. Midlands-based distribution) and sold by the pallet. Note: The discussion suggests **Bobbins and Berlin** was a previous supplier option, but members indicated this source no longer has adequate stock or suitable replacements, which is why alternative sourcing became necessary.
Where can UK drinks makers source stubby steel cans, and which canning lines can handle them?
Stubby steel cans are sourced from China and remain a niche format in the UK market. **Whitebox** is the main known UK operator using them, and they offer white-label canning services—members recommend reaching out to them directly or requesting an introduction through the community. Members note that very few canning lines currently handle the stubby format, so availability is limited. Whitebox uses DHL for distribution outside London, which members found reliable within London but experienced occasional delivery issues during peak periods (e.g. Christmas), so factor in potential logistics delays for remote areas.
Who offers co-packing services for pouch formats, and what are the typical MOQs and constraints?
Members have identified limited options for low-volume pouch co-packing. **Young Spirits** is the primary recommendation—one member went through multiple options and selected them; contact via DM for details on their other explored alternatives. **ICB Distillers** can handle bag-in-box and kegs but their MOQs are described as "fairly chunky" and they're uncertain about pouches. Members note that pouch co-packing at low volumes is challenging and requires direct outreach to suppliers for specifics on pouch size, closure type, and your volume requirements. One member also flagged that flexihex flap closures can occasionally be inconsistent depending on supplier (since the design was sold, quality varies), and suggests using tape as backup security when sealing.
What design agencies and designers do members recommend for rebranding and packaging projects?
Members recommend several designers and agencies with direct experience in drinks rebranding and packaging: - **WeLaunch** (Stuart Lang) — recommended for rebrand and packaging work; members note they're also happy to provide introductions - **Aitch Creates** (harry@aitchcreates.com, https://aitchcreates.com/portfolio/) — designer recommended by members - **Buddy Creative** (mark@buddycreative.com, https://buddycreative.com) — noted as "worth a shout" - **Max Agace** (http://www.maxagace.com) — highly rated ("👌🏼") For relabelling services on existing stock (e.g. cans), members also mention **Codex Solutions** — described as "very flexible" for ad hoc duty-paid relabelling work, and **WeLaunch** can facilitate introductions to relabelling suppliers. No detailed pricing or lead-time information was shared in the discussion.
Where can UK drinks brands source miniature 5cl bottles and 200ml slimline cans with reasonable lead times?
**Miniature 5cl bottles for urgent orders:** - **Pattersons Glass** (pattesonsglass.co.uk) — recommended as a potential source for miniature bottles; members have successfully contacted them for pre-Christmas deliveries of around 2000 units. - **East London Drinks** — members indicated they may be able to help with miniature bottle orders; direct contact recommended via PM. **200ml slimline cans:** - **Artisan** (via contract packer) — supplies 200ml cans with printing MOQs of 250k units, but converted stock does not need to be finished all at once. Fewer print runs are available for 200ml versus the more popular 250ml slim format, which can create supply constraints. - Members note that 200ml slimline cans present a narrower market with fewer suppliers than standard 250ml formats, making consistent supply more challenging. **Key caveat:** The 200ml slimline format has limited printing availability compared to 250ml alternatives, so lead times and MOQ commitments should be confirmed early with suppliers.
What are effective alternatives to brown glass for UV protection of light-sensitive spirits like saké?
UV protective coatings and sleeves exist as alternatives to colored glass, though they are less effective and more expensive. **UV protective spray coating** can be applied directly to clear glass and remains largely transparent after application, though it may have a slight haze depending on application quality. **UV protective sleeves** are also available but similarly add some haze to the glass and are not as reliable as brown glass for UV protection. Members noted these solutions work best for combined color and flavor stability needs (such as with saké) but come with trade-offs in terms of cost, transparency, and protective efficacy compared to traditional brown or dark glass.
Which packaging suppliers can deliver urgent orders with fast turnaround times?
Members have had success with a small number of specialist suppliers for rush orders. **Mosaic Boardprint** — recommended for custom coasters and printed items with week-long turnaround. Members reported using them multiple times with consistently good lead times. **The Bottle Jar Store** (thebottlejarstore.co.uk) — used for glass bottles including herbalist/specialty formats; members have sourced 20cl bottles and similar volumes through them for urgent needs. Members also note that informal peer networks within the community can be valuable: when facing urgent packaging needs, it's worth asking established members directly (via DM or group) as some may have spare stock or existing supplier relationships that can expedite orders. *Note: The discussion suggests these are tested for week-to-short-notice turnarounds, but availability and lead times vary by product type (printed items vs. bottles vs. seals). For extremely urgent needs (same-week delivery), direct contact with suppliers to confirm capacity is essential.*
How does the Scotland Bottle Deposit Scheme work and what should drinks producers do to comply?
The Scottish Deposit Return Scheme (DRS) is widely viewed by members as poorly designed and potentially unworkable. Key concerns raised: **Complexity and enforcement gaps** — Members highlighted a critical flaw: there's no clear mechanism to distinguish where bottles were initially supplied (e.g. England vs. Scotland), making it difficult to prevent cross-border arbitrage (someone buying stock in Carlisle and returning it in Scotland to claim deposits). Without separate bar codes or tracking, enforcement appears impractical. **Industry response** — Several producers are treating it as too bandwidth-intensive to plan around right now. One member reported switching their Scotland supply to **Nitro Cans only** (which fall outside the scheme) to avoid the administrative burden entirely. **Advice sought** — Members recommend attending specialist briefings (e.g. **Johnston Carmichael** hosted a talk on 25 October) to understand obligations, though attendees acknowledged the scheme remains confusing. **Wider sentiment** — There is broad scepticism that the scheme will proceed as planned; members compared it to Brexit-style policy that creates months of planning uncertainty only to be amended or abandoned at the last minute. **Caveat**: The excerpts don't contain detailed compliance requirements, pricing, or a clear operational roadmap. Until the scheme is finalised and clarified by regulators, it's unclear whether full compliance is even practical for multi-region suppliers.
Do Extended Producer Responsibility (EPR) packaging fees apply to small brands below the threshold when their products are sold via distributors above the threshold?
EPR liability is determined by the **manufacturer/producer**, not the distributor or retailer selling the product. - **Liability threshold is producer-based**: If the manufacturer does not qualify as liable for EPR fees (i.e. is below the scale threshold), then no one else in the supply chain becomes liable, regardless of distributor size. - **Producer responsibility principle**: The name "Extended Producer Responsibility" reflects the core rule—it is the producer's responsibility, not the distributor's. This applies whether a small producer sells direct or through a distributor above the threshold. **Caveat**: Members noted at the time of this discussion (December 2024) that the regulations were "wooly and ambiguous" with the January 1st implementation date approaching. While the producer-based interpretation was the working understanding, some members reported hearing contrary views and lacked definitive proof from official guidance. Verification with HMRC or formal legal advice may be prudent given the regulatory uncertainty.
How should Amazon product listings be updated when packaging changes, and should image updates be timed with new stock arrival?
Members recommend adding "packaging may vary" to the SKU name on Amazon listings to manage customer expectations during transitions. For example: "Three Spirit Livener 70cl packaging may vary". On timing image updates with stock: - **If you control the stock** (Vendor Central), timing the image refresh to coincide with new inventory arrival is ideal, but logistically difficult to execute perfectly if Amazon holds inventory. - **If Amazon owns the stock**, trying to synchronize picture updates with physical stock arrival is nearly impossible, so update the listing when ready and let Amazon's stock rotation happen naturally. - The general approach: prioritize having accurate images over perfect timing. If your product photo is already up to date, updating it again is less critical than ensuring the packaging variation is clearly noted in the listing copy.
Where can we find relabelling services for canned stock?
Members recommend a handful of established suppliers for can relabelling work: - **WeLaunch** — can facilitate introductions to relabelling partners - **Codex Solutions** — used by members for ad hoc, duty-paid relabelling work; noted as very flexible - **Bev Pack Supply** (based in Herefordshire) — members confirm they offer relabelling services; contact details available through the community For smaller batches or one-off projects, **Codex Solutions** appears to be the go-to recommendation. For larger or ongoing needs, **Bev Pack Supply** is worth approaching directly.
Which label printers do members recommend for UK drinks packaging?
Members recommend several reputable label printers with direct contacts: - **Reflex Labels** — described as "awesome" and going "over and above". Contact: Sara Lane, saral@reflexlabelplus.co.uk, 07736 925860 - **Eclipse** — praised as "great" - **Berkshire Labels** — described as "decent". Contact: raluca.balcanu@berkshirelabels.co.uk These are the suppliers members have had direct positive experience with and are willing to recommend to peers.
What are practical, cost-effective ways to test packaging designs with consumers?
Members recommend a mix of direct survey tools and in-person testing facilities. **Attest** is highlighted as a good platform for demographic-focused packaging feedback. Running a survey to your own email community is proven effective — one member ran a 35-question survey to 20k subscribers and achieved a 1500-response rate, which they found "pretty good" and "very useful" for design validation. For more controlled, in-person testing in different consumer settings, **Cardiff Met University has a studio** available for packaging testing; members can request an introduction via direct message to access this facility.
How can we prevent labels from getting damaged when using flexible packaging during shipping and handling?
Label damage with flexible packaging is a known problem, particularly when bottles move around during postage and when the sleeve is applied or removed by consumers. Members have identified and tested several solutions: - **Tissue paper wrapping** — fulfilment centres wrap bottles in tissue paper first to protect labels during transit. - **Branded crepe paper** — wrap the bottle in crepe paper before packaging; several companies print branded crepe paper, which adds a premium feel while solving the scuffing problem. - **Flexi-Hex drum-capsule packaging** — switching to Flexi-Hex's shorter drum-style packaging (rather than slender packaging) reduces bottle movement inside the package, which was the root cause for at least one member's damage issue. Members note that label damage can occur at multiple points: during application of the sleeve, when bottles move in transit, and when consumers remove the packaging. Simply applying a sleeve-based fix won't solve all failure points, so a layered approach (wrapping + packaging choice) is recommended. If you raise the issue with your packaging supplier, be prepared that they may initially claim they've never seen the problem before—but other users have successfully resolved it with these methods.
What are the typical minimum order quantities for custom printed or sleeved cans?
The major can suppliers (Crown, Ball, Ardagh) typically have high MOQs that make small-run launches challenging. For limited releases under 10,000 units: - **Oasthouse Engineering** — specifically mentioned as a supplier for small MOQ cans, recommended for shorter runs - **Sleeved/labelled cans** — considered more achievable than fully printed cans for smaller quantities - **Standard printed cans** — major suppliers (Crown, Ball, Ardagh) start at 50,000+ minimum order quantities Members working on launches of 5–10,000 units were advised to explore sleeved alternatives or contact specialists like Oasthouse Engineering rather than the large-scale producers. For specifics on your run size and format, direct outreach to suppliers is recommended.
Which label and can design agencies offer premium, illustrative design with strong brand differentiation at reasonable cost?
Members recommend several design agencies that deliver premium, illustrative can and label work without the premium price tag of high-end firms like Stranger and Stranger: - **Studio Minerva** — praised for quality of work and described as a great team; recommended for can design projects. - **Wonder Works** — member-recommended for label and packaging design, though noted to be more expensive than the budget-conscious 10% of top-tier firms. - **Gigantic Creative** — floated as an alternative option for brand-focused design work. - **Oveja & Remi** — suggested as another option, with offers to make introductions available within the community. Members emphasize the importance of finding designers who understand competitor differentiation and can deliver luxury or premium aesthetic. Requests for direct contact details and introductions are common within the community, suggesting personal referrals are valued. The cost-quality trade-off appears to be the main consideration, with most recommendations positioned as mid-market alternatives to top-tier luxury design agencies.
How do I find and verify a specific bottle design for spirits packaging?
Finding a specific bottle design often requires working with multiple suppliers and being flexible on exact matches, as bottles are frequently sold under different names across markets. - **Bruni** — members recommend checking their Belleville bottle as a similar option to hard-to-trace designs; ask about cork vs GPI (screw-top) specifications - **Kefla** — suggested as another supplier for bottles with similar profiles to uncommon designs - **Cross-reference by specifications** — if you can't find a bottle by name, try searching by key specs: identify whether it's cork mouth or GPI (threaded), the volume (e.g. 70cl), and the general shape, then approach suppliers with those details - **Expect variation** — clients may have very specific bottle requirements that don't exactly match standard lines; be prepared to show samples or negotiate on near-matches rather than exact replicas When sourcing, having the cork/GPI specification and volume locked down first makes it much easier to track down similar bottles across European suppliers.
What are cost-effective ways to test multiple colour bottle spray variations without paying £100+ per sample?
Members shared two practical approaches to avoid expensive physical sampling iterations: - **Bottle renderer/digital visualization** — Several members recommended using a digital bottle renderer as a cheaper and faster alternative to physical sampling. One member noted they used this approach and offered to connect others with the service provider they worked with. This allows you to visualize different colour spray options digitally before committing to physical samples. - **Felt tips** — One member suggested using felt tips as a quick, low-cost way to test colour variations on actual bottles. The consensus was that digital rendering significantly reduces both cost and turnaround time compared to traditional sampling, making it ideal for testing multiple iterations before investing in production samples.
Where can I source a specific bottle style when my usual supplier is out of stock?
When your primary bottle supplier runs out, members recommend reaching out to specialist glass bottle distributors who often stock a wide range of styles and may have inventory when others don't. - **Croxsons** — recommended as a go-to supplier for specific bottle styles - **Allied Glass** — contact Nolan, noted as worth trying for hard-to-find bottles - **World of Bottles** — your original source; worth checking back as stock changes If you know the bottle name (e.g. "Aberdeen" for a 500ml whisky-shaped bottle), use that when contacting suppliers as it speeds up the search. Members suggest having multiple distributor contacts on hand since stock availability varies.
What packaging improvements help reduce spirit bottle breakage during shipping?
Breakage rates vary widely (members report 2+ cases/month loss), and causes range from carrier mishandling to warehouse conditions. The most concrete tactic shared: **increase corrugated box gauge**. One member significantly reduced breakage by upgrading to BC flute 200 kraft outer with 80 B flute/80 liner/80 C flute and 200 inner liner—described as "super sturdy." Winter damp conditions in warehouses can soften standard boxes, so environmental control is worth reviewing alongside packaging upgrades. Members also note that some loss may be theft rather than breakage (one reported case of a FedEx driver found with 15 cases of gin); tracking whether damaged items are returned to the same address may help identify patterns. DPD and DHL both appear in members' experience, with variable breakage rates—it's unclear if recent increases are seasonal (Christmas volume) or carrier-specific.
What is Extended Producer Responsibility (EPR) legislation and how does it affect imported drinks products into the UK?
Extended Producer Responsibility requires producers and importers to track and report packaging data. **Reporting thresholds:** You only need to formally report if you have turnover over £1 million and generate 25 tonnes of packaging waste annually (approximately 35,000 glass bottles at 700g each). **For imported products:** If you're importing drinks, you'll need to clarify responsibility with your importer — either you or they may be designated as the responsible party for reporting packaging data. Members noted that communication from HMRC about the Advanced Packaging and Packaging Waste Regulations (APPA) has been limited, and several discovered the requirements through industry bodies like the BDA rather than direct government outreach. Even if below reporting thresholds, importers should still be recording packaging data for compliance purposes.