Ask the Collective
The questions independent drinks founders ask most — answered. Distilled from years of community knowledge so the good stuff never disappears in the feed again.
How do wax seals perform on bottles from environmental and production perspectives?
Wax seals add artisanal appeal but present significant production challenges unless scaled cost-effectively. Environmental credentials are unclear and warrant direct customer validation. **Production considerations:** - Hand-dipping is labour-intensive but feasible at smaller scales; **Maker's Mark** demonstrates the approach works at volume with viral-worthy hand-dipping production footage - Automation exists but requires investment to justify cost-effectively - Staff can find the work satisfying (one member's 81-year-old production manager considers it their favourite part of production), but it's time-consuming - Members warned the work "is not too bad" but "hard work" — only worthwhile if the premium justifies the labour cost **Branding and market risks:** - **Sipsmith** ditched wax seals in a recent bottle redesign (reported in just-drinks); research their reasoning before committing - Red wax risks trademark issues if it closely resembles **Maker's Mark**'s signature dipped bottle - Shelf appearance and consumer perception vary; one member advises testing mockups with your ideal customers before committing **Commercial opportunities:** - Members suggest offering distillery tour experiences where customers hand-dip their own bottles as a premium add-on revenue stream **Environmental angle:** The excerpts do not contain substantive discussion of wax seals' environmental impact. If sustainability is your primary driver, validate claims and customer perception before investing in the process.
Where can I find a cream liqueur producer or co-packer?
Several cream liqueur producers and co-packers are active in the UK and Ireland drinks scene. Members recommend: - **Coole Swan** — established Irish cream liqueur brand, well-regarded within the community - **Hensol** — produces vegan cream liqueur using coconut milk base - **Licor43** — supplies Horchata, a vegan cream liqueur made from tiger nut (Spain's no. 1 liqueur brand) - **Creamy Creation** — recommended as a potential supplier - **Niche Drinks** (Northern Ireland) — co-packer with proven track record; members have worked with them successfully - **West Cork distillery** — produces cream liqueurs; available for direct conversation about specific needs - **Custom producer** — One member's company produces cream liqueurs at scale, recently won a silver award for Tequila Strawberry Cream, and manufactures private-label volumes for major retailers. They are open to helping and noted they're shortly expanding dedicated cream production lines. **Important caveat:** Members emphasised that when selecting a producer, **verify they can actually produce the liquid to your specification** — don't assume capability without confirmation. Plant-based/vegan formulations are available if needed.
What are the SALSA accreditation requirements for drinks businesses and when is it mandatory?
SALSA accreditation is increasingly required by larger retailers and wholesalers for drinks listings, particularly for RFP (request for proposal) processes with major stockists. Here's what members found: **When it's needed:** - Large grocery retailers typically require proof of SALSA for listing approval - Smaller, local wholesalers may not mandate it, but larger ones do - Essential if you're producing spirits or other drinks for third-party clients **Two routes depending on your production setup:** - **Outsourced production** — If you use a contract manufacturer (co-packer) for blending and canning, their existing SALSA certification usually covers you; you won't need your own certification - **In-house production** — Getting SALSA approved yourself is "reasonably onerous" and involves significant paperwork and process documentation **What to expect:** - Substantial paperwork and administrative burden to achieve and maintain certification - Annual inspections are required to maintain status - Members described it as "a lot of work" but ultimately "doable" and "very worth it" for access to larger retail channels Members who pursued it without outsourced production found it a necessary headache to unlock major retailer relationships, particularly for RFP processes.
Where can we source custom-designed packaging boxes for bottle changes, and who should we work with to manage the production process?
For custom-designed boxes (manufactured to your specifications rather than personalised per unit), members have used specialist packaging suppliers with dedicated support. **Anglian Bespoke Packaging (ABC Packaging)** — contact Ben Loombe (ben@abcpack.co.uk) — produces custom 2/3/6 bottle boxes and is recommended by members at Wednesday's Domaine. **Box and Seal** (www.boxandseal.co.uk, speak to Gareth) and **The Packaging Experts** (contact Paul Marsh) are also suggested options. Members note that working with a dedicated production intermediary can save significant hassle: one producer engaged **Creative Production Technician Lisa Stillman** (lisastillman@me.com) to act as the interface between their branding team and the production company, handling technical drawings and samples.
What carbonation level (g/L) should RTD sparkling spirits target to match prosecco or sparkling wine?
Members recommend targeting **5–5.2 g/L** for pasteurised RTD sparkling spirits, though this falls slightly short of true sparkling wine levels. **Key guidance:** - **Sparkling wine legal minimum** — must be over 6 g/L to be classed as sparkling; prosecco and similar typically sit at **6–7.5 g/L** - **Pasteurised product ceiling** — members report that **5.2 g/L is approximately the maximum** achievable when pasteurising, due to carbonation loss during the heat process - **5 g/L as practical compromise** — members suggest **around 5 g/L is sufficient** for an RTD sparkling spirit, acknowledging it won't quite match prosecco but will feel appropriately carbonated for the category - **Bottles vs. cans** — better carbonation retention is possible in glass bottles versus cans, and post-pasteurisation carbonation injection can help, but pasteurisation itself remains the limiting factor - **Non-pasteurised option** — if pasteurisation can be avoided, higher levels (6–7.5 g/L) become achievable, but this requires different preservation methods **Caveat:** The gap between achievable (5–5.2 g/L) and aspirational (6–7.5 g/L) is a known trade-off when pasteurising. Members accepted 5 g/L as workable rather than pursuing the full prosecco experience.
Where can members find co-packing services for liquid bagging, bottling with ROPP closures, pasteurisation, and white-label cocktail production?
Members have recommended several co-packers with different capabilities: **Liquid bagging and boxing:** - **RED Distillery** — Neil can handle liquid bagging and boxing services - **Blackbridge** — Ash offers bagging and boxing; members suggest requesting an introduction **Bonded bottling with ROPP closures, pasteurisation, and small MOQs (1000L+):** - **Ashley Blackbridge** — Recommended as excellent for bonded bottling work - **Rhys Mallows** — Suggested as a contact for this specification - **Giraffe Distillers** — Adam confirmed they can handle custom bottling requirements; will provide credentials, capacity, and MOQ details on request **White-label bottled cocktails for corporate customers:** - **World of Zing** — Pritesh handles significant white-label cocktail bottling work - **Giraffe Distillers** — Can produce bottled cocktails to specification - **Netherlands-based option** — One member mentioned having a contact for a co-packer in the Netherlands if UK capacity is unavailable **How to proceed:** Contact members directly via WhatsApp for introductions, or request decks with credentials, capacity, and MOQ information. Lead times should be discussed for spring/summer delivery needs.
Do you need a premises license to rectify or compound duty-paid spirits in a hired facility for one-off production runs?
No premises licence is required for rectifying or compounding duty-paid spirits, even if you hire a facility for short-term production runs. A premises licence enables you to *sell to the public* but has no bearing on your production activities themselves. Members confirmed this is correct, and noted that you can hire a facility without a premises licence for a month to produce and bottle your duty-paid spirits without issue. For specific guidance, contact your local licensing body (e.g. LCB Sawston if in that region).
Which co-packers can handle canning runs of 10,000+ litres with pasteurising capability?
Members recommend several co-packers with canning capability in the UK, though pasteurising availability varies: - **Bottled & Canned** — confirmed to offer pasteurising and canning services; members report positive experience and are running trial canning runs with them. - **Alcohol Solutions (Manchester)** — has a new canning line but does **not** have pasteurising capability in-house, so verify their full service offering before approaching. - **Spiritbridge** — mentioned as a potential option; members suggest reaching out directly for capability discussion. - **Clearly Drinks (Sunderland)** — suggested as a co-packer worth contacting. - **HCC (Hereford)** — mentioned as another option to explore. - **Envirocan** — listed as an alternative co-packer option. **Caveat:** If pasteurising is essential to your specification, confirm this explicitly with each co-packer before committing—Alcohol Solutions lacks this capability, so don't assume all canning lines include it.
What label suppliers can handle very small custom runs of 12–24 labels?
Several options exist for small-batch custom labels: - **Berkshire Labels** — offers digital printing for small runs at around £150–200 per batch, suitable for bespoke orders. - **Vistaprint or similar online print services** — a budget-friendly fallback for very small quantities. - **Local contract manufacturers** — some members have found small operators in shared units or industrial spaces willing to do runs as small as 12–24 labels; one example charges 30p per label using thermal inks (which are alcohol-safe for spirit labels). Note: Local sourcing may offer better per-unit pricing and flexibility, but stock availability and material options may be more limited than with established label firms. Thermal inks are alcohol-compatible, which is important for drinks labels.
What UK bottle spraying and glass decoration services are available for small production runs?
For runs over 1,000 bottles, several UK specialist decorators are regularly used by members. Members recommend contacting suppliers directly as pricing and suitability vary significantly based on print complexity, run size, and whether glass is still at the manufacturer. **Recommended suppliers:** - **Dekorprint** (Birmingham) — regularly used for runs >1k; competitive pricing for tinting work, particularly cost-effective through contact Hardeep - **Nolan at Verallia** — used by members for tinting services - **Colorlites** / **Colourite** — used by members depending on project requirements - **Decor** — another option used by members for varying project types - **Glass manufacturer in-house facilities** — worth checking if your glass supplier offers spraying services, as this can avoid transport and wastage costs if decoration happens before the glass leaves the factory **Key considerations members flagged:** - Transport and wastage costs of external decorators can add up; check if your glass manufacturer can spray before delivery - Pricing varies by print complexity and run size, so get quotes from multiple suppliers - For >1k runs of simple tinting, external decorators typically represent the standard route
Can you run a successful white-label drinks business using contract manufacturers without owning your own production facility?
Yes, many successful brands operate this way, including some of the world's largest companies. However, it requires careful management and strong partnerships. **Key considerations:** - **Partner selection is critical** — Success entirely depends on how much you trust your co-packer. The relationship quality matters more than facility ownership. - **Cost control is essential** — With an extra margin tier from the co-packer, you must have your costs tightly managed to remain competitive. Members warned that adding multiple intermediaries (distributor → overseas partner → local manufacturer) can create unsustainable margin stacking. - **Clear contractual agreements** — Establish explicit Service Level Agreements (SLAs) and quality tolerances upfront. Define who is liable for rectifying quality issues before they arise. - **Quality control risks** — Having a contract filler means you're one step removed from production oversight, so robust quality agreements and regular communication are non-negotiable. **Caveats:** Members noted that outsourcing production introduces operational complexity and potential friction points. Some described it as "painful" without proper planning. Even producers who own their own facilities regularly consider outsourcing, suggesting the model has genuine trade-offs. The consensus: it *can* work, but ask ten people and get ten different answers based on their specific circumstances.
What are the best UK suppliers for enolmatic single-head fillers and bar-friendly glassware with quick delivery?
**Enolmatic single-head fillers:** Members recommend several suppliers for equipment and pricing: - **Derek** (https://www.winegrowers.info/wine-equip/enolmatic/info.htm) — used historically by members - **ACO** — frequently used by members for this equipment - **Vigo** — available but noted as expensive by some - **Liquid Solutions** (callum.mitchell@liquidsolutions.co.uk) — used by members - **Polsinelli** (https://www.polsinelli.it/en/enolmatic-filling-machine-P20.htm) — Italian supplier, but import times currently problematic **Bar-friendly glassware with quick delivery:** - **The Lucky Drinker** (https://theluckydrinker.com/) — recommended for bar-friendly glassware with faster turnaround - **GTR** — member connection available if needed - **Aval Dor** — members in the group work with them and can offer direct support - **8Track** — member connection available (Jeremy Mitchell from Upbeat) **Caveats:** Import times from European suppliers like Polsinelli are currently slow. Direct member introductions to suppliers like Aval Dor and 8Track are available within the community if needed.
Do you need to notify AWRS when changing distribution partners or production partners?
The community's experience suggests notification requirements differ by partner type. - **Production partner changes** — Members recommend notifying AWRS when you change production partners, as this is considered a material change to your operation. - **Distribution partner changes** — The consensus is that you likely don't need to notify AWRS when switching distributors (at least one member didn't and had no issues), though one member suggested it's "worth notifying distributor change at the same time just in case" to cover yourself. **Caveat:** This is based on members' practical experience rather than formal confirmation. For absolute certainty on AWRS requirements, confirming directly with AWRS would be prudent, especially for production changes which are more likely to require notification.
What are the practical options for removing labels and refurbishing cosmetic-second bottles at scale?
Members shared several approaches for de-labelling bottles, ranging from commercial products to manual techniques, though most acknowledged that truly large-scale solutions remain challenging. **Commercial products:** - **RS Online food-grade label remover** (https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/adhesive-removers/0491724) — specifically mentioned as food-safe, though be warned it has a very strong orange smell. **Manual/chemical approaches:** - **White spirit and a knife** — effective but members emphasised this is only practical for small volumes, not large-scale work. - **Lighter fluid** — noted as "amazing" by one member, though again implied to be a manual process. **Caveat:** The community acknowledged that large-scale de-labelling remains "a b*stard" to solve efficiently. No member presented a fully automated or high-volume commercial service, suggesting this remains a pain point without an easy answer. The suggestions progressed from safer to increasingly hazardous options, so exercise appropriate health and safety precautions.
What causes canned beverage leaks and seaming failures, and how can producers prevent them?
Leaking cans are a persistent quality-control challenge in canning. The root causes are multiple and often interconnected, so diagnosis and prevention require attention to several factors. **Primary causes:** - **Internal liner failure** — the most common cause of leaks - **Seam defects** — poor can seaming during the canning process itself - **External product contamination** — low-pH liquids (sub-6 pH) can corrode the unlined outside of cans over time; once one can leaks, product spreads to neighbouring cans, triggering a cascade failure (members report losing whole pallets this way) - **Carbonation levels and pasteurisation interaction** — some members solved leaks by changing recipe or adjusting carbonation; one member switched to **Jolly's** (which uses Velcorin dosing instead of pasteurisation) and resolved recurring issues - **Can stacking and storage conditions** — physical pressure during storage and shipment can accelerate failures **Prevention tactics members recommend:** - **Store sample cans upside down for a minimum of 10 days post-production** — this is the key early-warning step. Members caught a seam issue with lids from **Ardagh** only after loading a container for US shipment; upside-down storage would have flagged it before market - **Review your recipe and carbonation levels** — members found that recipe changes (including carbonation adjustment) eliminated leaks they'd previously blamed on canners - **Ask your canner about product handling** — ensure cans are not receiving external product contamination during the filling process - **Check your pasteurisation temperature and carbonation pairing** — if you pasteurise, discuss your specific temp/carbonation combo with your canner to rule out interaction issues **Canner recommendations from experience:** - **Bottled & Canned** (bottledandcanned.co.uk) — praised as "the most pro" by one member; handles low volumes (1,000–2,000L) - **Jolly's** — preferred by several members, uses Velcorin dosing; some had early leaking issues but resolved them by switching recipes - **Can It in Bolton** — described as "very good" with decent MOQs and lead times - **Ardagh** — supply can lids; at least one seaming issue reported **Caveats:** - Leaking can issues are "real and almost impossible to eliminate completely" - Multiple members reported mixed results even with the same canner (e.g., 2 SKUs fine, 1 "a total write-off" with Bottled & Canned; early leaks with Jolly's that resolved after recipe change) - Blame is often unclear — members acknowledge leaks may stem from recipe, canner process, storage, or a combination - Upside-down storage test is critical and should be mandatory before shipping
Can duty stamps be incorporated into back label artwork, and do you need to use freestanding labels, or can you switch between both options?
Yes, duty stamps can be incorporated directly into your back label artwork. Here's what members reported: **Setup process:** - Incorporation into the label design is possible, but requires HMRC to send you a disc with your registered duty stamp codes - Once HMRC approves and provides the disc, label printers can typically turn around incorporated-stamp labels within 10 days of receiving artwork - The initial setup takes some time to coordinate with HMRC **Recommended label printers (duty stamp capable):** - **Labelapeel** (Leicester) — speedy turnaround, competitively priced; ask for Craig Goodman. Multiple members confirmed they use them and praised the team. - **Labmak** (Label Makers) — excellent quality, though members noted they're not the fastest option - **Quality Labels** — noted for best pricing **Note on switching between formats:** The excerpts confirm members have incorporated stamps into labels, but don't explicitly address whether you can easily switch back to freestanding labels once set up with incorporated stamps. This may be worth clarifying directly with your label printer and HMRC during setup.
What causes cans to leak during production and how should we investigate the root cause with our co-packer?
Leaking cans are caused by multiple factors and rarely point to a single culprit. A full technical investigation is needed, as the seal itself is usually tested rigorously during production. **Common root causes members identified:** - **Exterior corrosion from low-pH products** — The outside of the can lacks the internal plastic coating protection. In acidic drinks (RTDs, ciders, low-pH beverages), the product can eat through the exterior over 6+ months, typically leaking from the top or bottom seams where water spray protection was not applied before labelling. - **Can specification or liner changes** — If the co-packer has changed the can spec, can lining, or the liner material, this can introduce compatibility issues with your product. - **Recipe or ingredient alteration** — Even minor tweaks or ingredient changes affecting acidity can trigger leaks; verify target pH levels with your recipe team. - **Production pressures or corner-cutting** — Members noted leaks occurring during can shortages (e.g. late 2023/early 2024) when manufacturing standards may have been compromised. - **First-run production** — New SKUs run for the first time carry higher risk if pre-production testing was incomplete. **Investigation approach:** - Request a full technical incident report from the co-packer documenting can supplier, liner material, production dates, and any process deviations. - Engage your can supplier, recipe/product team, and co-packer to rule out each variable systematically — each party often blames the others. - Check whether the issue affects all SKUs or just specific ones (some members saw leaks on 1 of 3 SKUs). - Document cascade failures: one leaked can can contaminate multiple cans below it in stacked pallets ("Christmas tree effect"). **Caveat:** Root cause may remain unclear even after investigation, as responsibility is often disputed across multiple parties. Members recommend proactive dialogue with your co-packer early and involvement of experienced operations staff to document findings.
What is the best process for preparing bottles in-house before filling?
Members emphasize that bottle preparation is essential to remove particulates and contaminants. The method depends on what you're bottling and your operation size. **Rinsing methods:** - **High-pressure air** — used by commercial bottlers; preferred for alcohol products because water can affect final ABV and circulate contaminants between bottles. Air also eliminates the need for drying time. - **Sterilised water** — simpler entry-level approach, but requires drying racks/towers afterward; less suitable for high-ABV products due to ABV dilution risk. - **Vodka wash (high-ABV bottle wash)** — used by some producers as an in-house alternative; records kept for SALSA compliance. **Equipment:** - **2-head washer machines** (e.g., from Vigo) — recommended as affordable entry-level automation; step up from hand pumps. - **Hand pumps** — very basic starting point for small operations. - **Drying racks/towers** — required if using water rinse. **Key considerations:** - Primary concern is particulate removal. - If bottling alcohol, avoid water rinses due to ABV dilution. - Larger operations favour air over water for efficiency and product integrity. - Document your process for compliance (e.g., SALSA records). Members offer links to specific suppliers on request.
Should a co-packer charge a brand for lost production line time when the brand's materials arrive late?
This is a contentious issue with legitimate arguments on both sides. The community consensus leans toward acknowledging the co-packer's costs—a strong majority (12 out of 14 responses) agreed the charge is justified in principle, recognizing that manufacturers do have fixed production-line costs to cover. **Key considerations from the community:** - **The brand's responsibility matters**: If the brand is ordering materials and missing deadlines due to its own disorganisation, members generally felt the charge was fair. The co-packer has production slots booked and incurs costs if the line sits idle. - **Supplier fault changes the equation**: If the delay is caused by the material supplier (not the brand's ordering), the situation is murkier. Members flagged this as "a tough one"—the brand shouldn't necessarily bear the cost of a third-party supplier's failure. - **Pattern vs. one-off**: A single late delivery is different from a pattern of chronic late arrivals. Members noted that repeated disorganisation justifies charges more readily. - **Cash-flow reality**: One member noted an important caveat: while they understand the co-packer's position, early-stage brands may be "so strapped for cash" that they'd struggle to pay a bill, even if they accept it's fair. This could become a relationship problem and potentially trigger a search for a new manufacturing partner. **Bottom line**: Members recommend treating this as a conversation item in the contract or SLA—clarify who owns material ordering, what constitutes acceptable lead times, and under what conditions line charges apply. Prevention (better planning) is cheaper than the argument.
How many bottles of gin can be produced from an 1800L still, and what affects the yield?
Production yield from an 1800L still varies significantly based on your production decisions. Members report a wide range: **roughly 1,800 bottles** at one end, up to **2,000 to 20,000 bottles** depending on choices made. Key factors affecting yield: - **ABV (alcohol by volume)** — the strength you're targeting materially impacts the final bottle count - **Cut points** — where you make cuts during distillation (heads, hearts, tails) affects how much usable spirit you recover - **Dilution ratio** — described by members as ranging from "1x shot to 10x shot," suggesting significant variation in how much water/neutral spirit is added post-distillation The wide range (1,800 to 20,000) reflects these variables: a high-ABV, minimal-dilution run will yield far fewer bottles than a lower-ABV, heavily-diluted one from the same still.
Which bonded warehouses do UK spirits producers recommend for storage, and how do their rates and services compare?
Members use a small number of established bonded warehouse providers for spirits storage in the UK. The two most commonly mentioned are **LCB** (lcb.co.uk) and **EHD**. Several members note that **LCB** rates have increased significantly in recent years, so it's worth comparing options. For logistics and admin support around bonded warehouse management, members highly recommend **Duppy Sharing**, which handles production logistics, warehouse coordination, and back-office administration for multiple Kindred brands. They are praised for five years of reliable service, problem-solving, and customer support for both large and small brands. **Note:** The discussion provides limited detail on specific rates, service levels, or direct comparison data between providers. Members advise getting current quotes directly, as pricing has been volatile.
Which bottle suppliers should UK spirit producers use, and what are the lead times and sourcing options?
UK spirit producers have several established bottle suppliers to choose from, split between direct producers (longer lead times, typically weeks) and UK-based importers/resellers (faster turnaround, typically days). **Direct producers:** - **Verallia** — established producer - **Vetroelite** — established producer - **Saver Glass** — producer with weeks lead time - **Estal** — producer with weeks lead time **UK-based importers/resellers:** - **Rawlings** — UK-based reseller, days lead time - **G&C Packaging** — UK-based reseller, days lead time - **Bruni** — supplier option mentioned - **Owen International (O-I)** — supplier option mentioned The trade-off is clear: direct producers offer potentially better pricing and direct relationships but require longer planning (weeks), while UK-based resellers offer faster delivery (days) at the cost of potentially higher margins built in. Members recommend considering your production timeline and minimum order quantities when deciding between producer and reseller routes.
How do you find and vet UK bottling and co-packing facilities for small batch production?
Finding a UK co-packer typically starts with personal introductions within the Kindred network. Members recommend reaching out directly to known facilities or asking for introductions via the group. Key suppliers and contacts mentioned: - **Columbo Group** — members have contacts here and can facilitate introductions - Direct outreach to individual members who manage co-packing relationships What you'll need ready: - **Volume requirements** — co-packers ask about expected batch sizes upfront - **Bottle format/size** — specify your exact packaging needs (e.g. wine spritz in specific bottle size) Approach: Members suggest emailing contacts directly or asking the group for an introduction. Several members indicated they have "a few options available depending on requirements," suggesting capacity varies by format and volume. Personal networks and word-of-mouth vetting appear to be the primary route—members will only recommend facilities they've worked with or trust.
Which bottling services can handle privately owned whisky casks?
Members recommend contacting specialist cask bottling services. The key recommendations are: - **Cadenhead's** — mentioned as a suitable option for bottling privately owned casks - **The Single Cask** (contact: Ben) — recommended for cask bottling work - **Young Spirits** — praised as a Scotland-based bottler, with the advantage that using them allows you to maintain a Scotch whisky label Members also flagged the importance of knowing where your cask is bonded before approaching a bottler, as this affects which services can access it. If your cask is held at a major facility like Whyte & Mackay (W&M), you may need to work with bottlers who have relationships with that specific bonded warehouse.
Which contract bottlers can handle miniature (5cl) bottle filling at volume?
Members report that miniature filling capacity exists but options are limited and pricing is tight. **Beams** has been used successfully by members for runs of 30k+ units and is available for introductions, though members note that finding more competitive pricing than Beams offers is challenging. **Contract Bottlers Glasgow** was mentioned as having a spare line available. For volumes around 100k per quarter, members recommend getting in touch with existing contacts and asking for introductions rather than cold-calling — personal referrals seem to unlock both availability and potentially better terms.
What are best practices for blending spirits at scale?
Members working at scale emphasize weighing rather than volume measurement for accuracy and consistency. **Equipment & Methods:** - **IBC scales** — recommended for weighing during blending operations - **Load cells for tanks** — alternative approach for larger volumes - **204L barrels on scales** — some members blend in standard barrels placed on scales, though one noted this approach "is a bitch" (implying practical challenges with handling and measurement precision) - **Mass/weight-based blending** — consistently cited as the easiest approach rather than volume-based methods **Key caveat:** Members didn't elaborate in detail on the specific technical challenges or workflow optimizations, suggesting this may be an area where peer-to-peer conversations (rather than group chat) are happening. One member offered to discuss further offline.
Where can I source pink grapefruit peel for production?
Members report that finding pink grapefruit peel suppliers can be challenging. When sourcing, clarify whether you need actual peel or oil, as this affects your supplier options. Recommended suppliers to contact: - **Beacon** — reportedly contacted but unavailable for pink grapefruit peel - **Star Spice** — reportedly contacted but unavailable for pink grapefruit peel - **KrauterMix** — suggested as an alternative option to try Members recommend reaching out directly rather than relying on LinkedIn outreach to avoid excessive contact attempts.
What are the pain points and practical considerations when outsourcing contract bottling for spirits, and which UK bottlers do members recommend?
Contract bottling can introduce logistical friction into your production timeline, but members find it worthwhile as a scaling solution. Here's what the community has experienced: **Recommended bottlers:** - **Young Spirits** (Edinburgh) — praised for reliability and quality output - **Boss Brewing** (Wales) — currently bottling for at least one member; described as a working partner despite logistical challenges **Key pain points:** - Lead times are tight and can be a constraint; short turnaround is a priority for many members - The outsourced process introduces coordination complexity that members describe as frustrating but manageable **Finding bottlers:** - Direct outreach works: asking within the community and connecting via email introductions has led to useful partnerships - Location matters less than capability and availability — members are willing to work with bottlers across the UK (Scotland to Wales) **Bottom line:** Members acknowledge contract bottling adds friction but see it as a necessary step when scaling production. The key is finding a bottler with short lead times and reliable output.
What are the practical procedures for pasteurizing bottled spirits, and how do glass manufacturers handle liability?
Glass manufacturers will not take responsibility for pasteurization damage, so spirits producers must validate suitability independently. Members recommend contacting specialist consultants rather than relying on supplier guidance. **Key approach:** - **Independent testing** — Members have determined bottle suitability through their own trials rather than waiting for manufacturer support - **Tunnel pasteurization** — The standard method used by members for bottled spirits - **Specialist consultant support** — Members recommend reaching out to specialists (contact: dash on 07957200571) who can advise on pasteurization procedures and bottle compatibility **Important caveat:** No glass suppliers will accept liability if pasteurization causes bottle failure or damage. This means producers bear full responsibility for validating that their chosen bottles can withstand the pasteurization process before proceeding at scale.
What contract bottlers and bottling services are available for under-bond and sterile bottling in the UK?
Members recommend reaching out to the following contract bottlers for under-bond and general bottling services: - **Kingsland Drinks** (Manchester) — recommended for under-bond bottling work - **CB Glasgow** (https://www.cbglasgow.com/) — listed as a bottling option - **Burlington Bottling** (https://burlingtonbottling.com/) — general contract bottling - **Alcohol Solutions** (https://www.alcohol-solutions.co.uk/) — contract bottling services - **Startup Drinks Lab** (https://www.startupdrinkslab.com/) — contract bottling for new brands - **Beamspack** (https://www.beamspack.com/) — bottling and packaging services - **Greencroft Bottling** (https://www.greencroftbottling.com/) — contract bottling option - **Proof Drinks** — mentioned as a potential partner (some members have worked with them) Members noted that finding under-bond bottlers for specific formats can be challenging, especially for newer products like carbonated RTDs in 750ml bottles. It's worth contacting multiple providers and being clear about your format, volume requirements, and whether you need sterile bottling capability, as not all contract bottlers offer the full range of services.
Should I contract distillation with a co-packer or build in-house production capacity?
The choice between co-packing and in-house distillation depends on your priorities around cost, brand story, and market focus. **Cost and efficiency**: Co-packing is typically significantly cheaper than in-house production. Members report paying around **£5 per bottle** for contracted distillation, making it the more cost-effective route if your primary goal is scaling sales and marketing. **Origin and storytelling**: In-house or local production adds meaningful value if your brand narrative depends on provenance. Members noted that **origin stories are a genuine sales driver**—particularly if you can claim local/regional production. This justifies the higher in-house costs and can differentiate you in a crowded market. **Testing and iteration**: In-house production (or local co-packing) can be a low-commitment way to test new products and validate demand before committing to larger production runs or national distribution. **Market positioning**: Members cautioned against letting legislation changes alone drive the decision. The choice should reflect your actual market strategy—e.g., whether you're targeting local markets with strong origin narratives or pursuing national distribution where cost efficiency matters more. **Caveats**: Recent market shifts (e.g., gin market saturation, consumer preference for rum) suggest the category itself matters as much as the production method. Focus on market demand and your brand story first; the production model should support that, not drive it.
Which canning co-packers can handle small to medium production runs, and what are their minimum order quantities?
The community has experience with a small number of canning co-packers for sub-50k unit runs. **Bottled and Canned** (Devon) is the most frequently mentioned option and comes recommended by several members, though quality consistency has been an issue for some—specifically carbonation levels and leaking cans. Members note the company "seems to be better than most" despite these occasional problems. For very small runs (100–125ml cans across multiple SKUs), members have indicated that custom solutions exist but require direct contact with producers who can assess timing and capacity. One member was in the process of testing a new canning partner in Glasgow for sub-50k unit runs and indicated they would report back. **Caveats:** - Quality issues are not uncommon; several members reported leaking cans and inconsistent carbonation, even with recommended suppliers. - Minimum run sizes and pricing were not explicitly detailed in community discussions—contact required for specifics. - Availability and lead times vary; timing of your run matters.
What are the recommended UK contract packers and bottlers for different production volumes?
Members have shared experience with several contract packing and bottling operations across different capacity ranges. **Mid-to-large volume operators:** - **Contract Bottlers Glasgow** — confirmed smooth shipping and operation by members - **RSM Solutions** — recommended as an option - **Brittains** — listed as a recommended provider - **Mallows Distillery** (Cardiff) — described as good operators **Specialist operators for smaller pilot runs and craft scales:** - **Liquid Fusion Group** — recommended for batch, fill, pasteurisation and carbonation in glass bottles for non-alcoholic products. Contact: Ed@liquidfusiongroup.com. Described as "super useful and nice guy with tons of experience." Members report they handle multiple SKUs across a product range, though some have noted "sticking points" with certain formats. **High-volume minimum runs:** - One member's family operation can handle contract manufacture but requires 20,000L+ runs per SKU minimum, so only suitable for significant scale-up. **Key considerations:** Volume requirements vary significantly by provider—clarify your pilot run size (1–2k L initially, scaling to 5k+) before approaching, as some operators have minimum thresholds. Members recommend contacting providers directly to discuss format compatibility, as even experienced packers may have constraints with certain bottle formats or specifications.
What is the timeline for phasing out physical duty stamps, and what should producers plan for?
Duty stamps are scheduled to be phased out in 2025, so producers should avoid bulk-printing labels with current stamp designs. Members are already using two approaches: - **2024 technology with UK-approved printers** — using a CD sent to the printer to apply stamps to labels; this is the current compliant route for incorporation into label artwork - **ROI-based printers (e.g. LabelTech, based outside Dublin)** — used for smaller label runs to avoid waste and being left with excess stock - **Future technology: on-line engraving** — there is potential for stamps to move to engraving directly on bottles during production, which could cover both food standards and HMRC requirements simultaneously **Key considerations:** If using a UK-approved printer, the brand owner needs a UK duty representative and someone must take responsibility for the CD-ROM containing the stamp data. For producers using overseas printers (e.g. in Mexico or Oaxaca), it may be simpler to have the supplier register locally and apply stamps at source rather than attempt to incorporate pre-printed stamps into labels. Registration and stamp arrival typically takes 2–3 weeks once applied for via the gov.uk guidance.
What should founders expect regarding production delays and communication when working with co-packers, and how common are these issues?
Production delays and poor communication are unfortunately common in the co-packing industry, though the severity varies significantly by manufacturer. **What members experienced:** - **Brew+Bottle (now Renegade Drinks)** — Multiple delays with less than 24 hours notice during a factory move; described as very poor communication for a pilot run that was originally scheduled for June 18th but delayed three times over three months - **WeCan** — Reported as "a nightmare" for small runs (around 10k cans); cited for quality issues, planning failures, crazy delays, and terrible communication **Industry context:** - Delays and communication quality vary significantly depending on the format, complexity, and which manufacturer you use - Legitimate manufacturing delays (equipment breakdown, boiler failure) do happen and are unavoidable, but poor production planning is not the same as true manufacturing emergencies - Early-stage brands often have limited choice and may need to work with less reliable manufacturers initially, despite the frustration - Some members questioned how these companies remain in business given their service levels **Caveat:** The threshold for what constitutes acceptable communication and delay timescales appears to be a friction point across the industry. If you're considering a co-packer, asking for references and checking the Food Hub forum on Facebook may surface additional feedback.
How do paper bottle filling processes work and what are the key challenges and suppliers involved?
Paper bottles (such as Frugal bottles) can be filled on conventional bottling lines, but the process presents significant logistical challenges that most producers cannot handle in-house without specialist support. **Key supplier and process details:** - **Frugal** — Provides printing, assembly, and pouches in the UK. Their bottles come with full 360° label coverage. MOQ is 5,000 units (much cheaper and easier at 20k+). Material cost is approximately £1 per bottle, plus roughly £1 per bottle for filling. - **Silent Pool** — Experienced bottler offering filling services for paper bottles; members recommend contacting them directly for filling pricing and general information. **Critical challenges members highlighted:** - Filling is "a nightmare" and "FILLING hell" — most producers lack the right equipment due to pouch vacuum requirements and the need to weight bottles accurately. - **Do not attempt to fill yourself.** Members reported losing 6 months to failed in-house attempts. - Long lead times and frequent delays are normal. - Frugal's business model focuses on selling assembly machines rather than finished goods, which complicates access to bottling capacity and has driven up pricing. - Frugal is actively working to onboard more bottlers, but capacity remains constrained. **Retail and trade reception:** - No pushback from buyers or consumers; retailers and on-trade actually respond well once the sustainability story is explained. Some resistance to the plastic bag and cap, but sustainability is not a zero-sum equation. - Best practice: paper bottles for off-trade and e-commerce (low carbon, low breakage risk); bulk solutions or ecoSpirits alternatives for on-trade.
How can I source bespoke glass stoppers from Asian manufacturers?
Members recommend reaching out directly to community contacts who have established relationships with Asian glass manufacturers. - **Direct contact via community network** — Members with existing partnerships offer to make introductions. Several members noted they have active supplier relationships for glass heads/stoppers and are happy to facilitate introductions via DM. - **One-to-one calls with experienced members** — Those who have recently completed sourcing (within the last few months) are available to share process details and supplier contacts on a call. The approach is brokered through private introductions rather than open sourcing platforms. No specific manufacturer names or pricing details were shared in the discussion, but members indicated the process is straightforward enough that they retain "a lot of the detail still to hand" after completing their own sourcing.
Which contract bottlers can handle small-volume alcohol-free (AF) production runs?
Members recommend **Black Bridge** (contact Ashley Black Bridge) as a reliable contract bottler capable of handling AF production. For smaller volumes in the 5–10k range, direct outreach to bottlers with AF capability is essential, as not all operators routinely handle alcohol-free runs. Members also note that glass sourcing can be challenging for small orders; if you need standard sizes like 5cl, 200ml, or 700ml screwcap bottles, it's worth asking your network directly—members sometimes have excess stock available (Apotheker and Chiara Glass formats have been spotted in members' warehouses).
Where can we find 330ml can filling services?
Members needing urgent canning services have recommended the following contacts: - **joe@drinkschef.com** — recommended for 330ml can filling - **Simon Attfield, Attfield Design** (https://www.attfield-design.com/) — described as very good and very cost effective; note that contact was in the US until Friday (timing dependent on when this was written) If you need to contact these services, it's worth mentioning any urgent timelines upfront, as filling capacity can be tight at short notice.
Where can you find reliable label suppliers for miniature bottles with quick turnaround and reasonable origination costs?
Members recommend **Printedeasy.com** as a straightforward option for small-run label printing on miniatures with fast turnaround. The platform is noted for handling jobs within a fortnight timeframe without prohibitive setup fees, making it suitable for orders around 300 labels.
Which freelance bottle designers with technical production knowledge do members recommend?
Members have successfully used freelance bottle designers with production expertise and are willing to share contact details privately. The community recommends asking for **designers who have handled composition work** (visual and structural design for bottles). When seeking recommendations, reaching out directly to members who have recently completed similar projects is the most effective approach—several members in the group have used trusted designers for years and offer to share contact details one-to-one. For specific projects like 5cl bottle design, members suggest getting in touch via direct message to access their vetted contacts.
How should I source and set up contract distilling for grappa production in the UK?
For contract grappa distilling, members recommend approaching distilleries with established grappa expertise and the right equipment. **Cosmo Caddy at Devon Distillery** is recommended as a contact—he operates a frilli impianti still, has over ten years of UK grappa distilling experience, and is available for contract distilling work. Members suggest asking for an introduction if you need a direct connection.
Where can we find contract distilleries that can handle small single-shot spirit production runs?
Members have identified at least one contract distillery actively offering single-shot production services. **Tarsier** explicitly offers single-shot distilling and can be contacted directly through the community. They indicated willingness to work with producers on small batches. Note that 700 litres may be considered on the smaller side for some producers—one member suggested scaling up to 1,500 litres for better economics, though Tarsier's response suggests they are flexible on minimum volumes. Members also flagged that some producers operate barrel-ageing services; sourcing these capabilities may require direct outreach within the community network.
What are current lead times and pricing for bottle decoration services?
Bottle decoration is currently a tight market with significant lead-time and cost pressures. Members have experienced substantial price increases and extended timelines. **Current situation:** - Lead times for new product development (NPD) decoration have extended to **6 months** - **Bruni** quoted a 125% price increase, citing inflation despite the actual inflation rate being 2.9% - Members experienced successive price rises: **4% then 11%** in quick succession **Market context:** - The Yorkshire decoration sector (near Allied and Stoelzle) is experiencing acute labour shortages, with Amazon's local logistics facility offering £18/hour starting wages and drawing workers away - Pallet bottle inserts and protectors face cardboard supply constraints - Decorators currently have significant pricing power in what is described as a "decorators' market" **Recommendation:** Members should expect current negotiations to favour suppliers and plan NPD timelines accordingly—6 months minimum for decoration lead times appears to be the current baseline.
What are good alternatives to Campden BRI for shelf-life testing at better pricing?
Members recommend exploring cheaper alternatives to the established Campden BRI lab for shelf-life testing work. - **Express Micro Science** — cited as a cheaper option for shelf-life testing - **Brew Lab** — reported to offer shelf-life testing services No detailed pricing comparisons or lead times were discussed in the community thread, so you may want to contact these providers directly for quotes and turnaround times to compare against your current supplier.
Where can we find ad-hoc relabelling and reboxing services for 5,000–10,000 unit quantities?
For small to medium batch relabelling and reboxing work, members have recommended: - **Atwell Labellers** (Sussex) — used successfully by members for ad-hoc relabelling projects. Contact via DM for more information and pricing.
What should you look for when finding a co-packer or canner, and which suppliers do members recommend?
When sourcing a co-packer or canner, define your specific technical requirements upfront—minimum order quantities, carbonation/nitrogen needs, pasteurisation, blending/filtering capabilities, and labelling preferences—then reach out to vetted suppliers in the community. Members recommend: - **Bottled & Canned** (shaun@bottledandcanned.co.uk) — praised for being great to work with and capable of handling non-carbonated products with nitrogen dosing, pasteurisation, mixing/blending, filtering, and hibiscus-compatible work - **Drayhorse Canning** — can handle approximately 14mm cans annually with competitive pricing; contact nate@drifterspirits.com to set up an introductory call with their team Key considerations members highlighted: clarify your MOQ (one member sought 1,000-litre minimums), confirm pasteurisation capability, ensure they can handle specialty ingredients like hibiscus, and verify label-over-can options if needed. Members suggested reaching out directly to suppliers with a detailed technical spec sheet rather than searching broadly, as capabilities vary significantly.
What is the carbon footprint of different glass bottle weights, and how much does reusing bottles reduce emissions?
Glass production carries a measurable carbon cost. **1.25g CO2 per gram of glass** is a widely referenced benchmark, originating from a 2007–10 US study by GPI and supported by similar findings in Bogaard et al (2014), though the figure varies depending on recycled content and transport distances. Bottle weights vary significantly: spirits bottles typically range from 765g (lightweight) to 920g (Long Island standard), while wine bottles often sit below 500g. **Reuse is dramatically more effective than recycling.** Members report that glass reused 7–10 times is considered to have near-zero incremental CO2 impact, though this specific claim lacks readily available published sources. One member has been running a bottle return scheme since 2018 and reports collecting up to 1,000 bottles annually. **Practical reuse strategies:** - **Local collection loops** — the most viable approach; one member works with local retailers (who offer consumers money off for returns) and local pubs (bottles collected during regular visits to avoid extra journeys) - **Consumer incentives** — offering donations to charity for returned bottles, or discounts at point of purchase - **Avoid national logistics** — most distributors struggle to handle returns at scale, so schemes only work regionally **Key caveat:** Transport distance and recycled-content percentages materially affect the baseline CO2 figure for any given bottle, making site-specific calculations essential. The research in this area is under constant review and relatively dated.
Who can provide co-packing services for carbonation and filling into small format bottles and cans?
Members seeking co-packing for carbonation and filling have limited but confirmed options. - **Somerset Cider Solutions** — recommended for carbonation and filling services into glass bottles The community discussion also shows demand for fillers handling small format cans (150ml, 200ml, 250ml sizes), but no specific supplier recommendations were provided in the excerpts for can-filling services. Caveats: The discussion suggests co-packing capacity in the UK for small formats may be tight. Members are actively searching for additional providers, indicating supply constraints in this space.
What tabletop canning equipment is available for small-volume, non-carbonated canning operations?
For small-volume non-carbonated canning, members suggest checking with established breweries in the network who may have spare equipment available for purchase or hire. **Canopy** (via contact Estelle) has been mentioned as a potential resource. Additionally, **The Hide** may have spare tabletop canning equipment available post-lockdown that could be purchased. The community recommends reaching out directly to members with existing setups rather than purchasing new equipment outright, as this is often more cost-effective for small-scale operations. No specific off-the-shelf tabletop canning machines were named in discussions, suggesting the community tends to source used equipment or borrow/hire from established operators.