Ask the Collective
The questions independent drinks founders ask most — answered. Distilled from years of community knowledge so the good stuff never disappears in the feed again.
How do pasteurisation parameters affect the colour stability of natural fruit juice concentrates in RTD beverages, particularly red and pink tones?
Pasteurisation itself at standard parameters (e.g. 70°C for 15 minutes via tunnel) should not change product colour. However, natural red pigments—particularly anthocyanins from strawberry and blackberry juice concentrates—can degrade under high heat or oxidation, potentially browning over time. Members have found several practical solutions: (1) Reduce pasteurisation temperature slightly and compensate with longer hold time to maintain the same pasteurisation unit; (2) Add ascorbic acid at 0.2g/L as an antioxidant to prevent oxidative browning; (3) Lower pH slightly, which stabilises anthocyanins; (4) Switch to more heat-stable natural colours—members recommend black carrot extract as the top option for pink-red tones, or EXBerry/GNT as premium suppliers of stable natural colours. Since your product is canned (not glass), light strike is not a concern. The ultimate factory validation method is heating the product in a dishwasher to test pasteurisation effect on colour stability.
What is a good rate of sale (ROS) benchmark for spirits and RTD products in UK retail stores?
Members report that benchmarks vary significantly by product type and retail channel. For grocery stores generally, 1 bottle per store per week is considered a basic benchmark across spirits (alc and non-alc). For RTD cans in grocery, the consensus sits at 4–5 units per store per week as average, though members note RTD ranges between 6–10 units weekly depending on the product. One member reported being targeted at Sainsbury's on a premium tequila (£34) at 4–5 cans per week. Anything over 6 units per week for RTD is considered a great success by one experienced member. Context matters significantly: chiller placement and shelf position drive substantially stronger ROS, as do multi-buy promotions (which account for a large percentage of RTD sales). Tesco Metro locations tend to show notably stronger velocity. Members also noted that Costco turns stock 12+ times per year (fastest in industry), traditional retail closer to 3–5 times annually, and that buyer profitability calculations—gross margin after promotions and investment—now often matter as much as raw volume in securing listings.
What preservatives, pasteurisation methods and shelf-life standards do non-alcoholic RTD beverages require?
Non-alcoholic RTD beverages typically require specific preservation techniques to achieve extended shelf life. Members report achieving 3-year unopened shelf life with 12-month open ambient life on their products. **Preservation methods:** - **Hot pack pasteurisation** — the standard approach, performed during packing - **Post-pack pasteurisation** — an alternative thermal processing method - **Acids and sorbate** — chemical preservatives commonly used - **Avoid corks** — cork closures are not recommended for non-alc RTDs **Typical shelf-life benchmarks:** - Unopened ambient: 3 years (achieved by members) - Once opened: 12 months ambient (member experience) - Bag-in-box (5L): 9–12 months unopened; 4–6 months once opened **Key caveat:** Sodas like Sprite and Coke achieve their extended ambient shelf life through a combination of high acid content, sorbates, and pasteurisation. Unlike spirits and some low-ABV RTDs which require refrigeration, properly preserved non-alc beverages can remain shelf-stable. Members note that taste quality may degrade over very long storage periods even if the product remains safe.
What are the practical options for getting RTD canned cocktails into the French market given the combined alcohol duty and sugar tax?
France's combined alcohol duty (€0.23 per unit) and sugar tax (€1.31 per unit) effectively closed the RTD canned cocktail market almost overnight—it was a deliberate policy to target youth drinking. Retail viability is extremely difficult under current taxation, but members identified a few approaches others have attempted: - **Desperados** — the primary successful RTD retail brand in France; uses a tequila base, suggesting spirit-based positioning may help navigate the tax structure - **Féfé** — another visible RTD brand, though category presence remains minimal - **Reformulation to malt-based or sugar-free**: Members suggest swapping sugar for sweeteners (referenced as a tactic Britvic uses) or moving to a neutral malt base to reduce tax exposure. One member offered to help with reformulation and can share ingredient suppliers if needed - **Increase ABV**: One experienced producer noted "up the abv is the only way" - **Contact Aston Manor**: They have a parent company in France and produce high-sugar-content perry and cider-based cocktails; worth approaching for market-entry insights **Important caveat**: The market is heavily constrained. Members noted that RTD cocktails "barely exist" in France at present. The category has been largely replaced by flavoured beers (mango, raspberry, etc.), which sit in a different tax bracket. France remains "a nightmare for the category" overall.
Which co-packers and bottlers can handle small-batch production, RTD bottling, and kegging services?
Members recommend several co-packers and bottlers for smaller production runs and specialist services. Here are the specific contacts and options shared: **Blending & Kegging** - **1.8** — Haydon and Jono reportedly handle kegging cocktails and support smaller batch production (though availability was queried, suggesting you should confirm current capacity). **Small-Batch Bottling (100–2000L)** - **Beamspack** — Members have used them and are happy to make introductions. - **Giraffe Distillers** — Can provide quotes; noted as having a dedicated miniature line (contact: Andy). - One member offered to support 2000L runs; DM for details. **Miniature Bottling** - **Beamspack** — Successfully handled miniature packing at scale (8,000 and 40,000 units mentioned). - **Giraffe Distillers** — Has a dedicated miniature line and can quote. **RTD (Bottles & Cans), In-Bond** The community discussion flagged this as a common need, but no specific suppliers were named in the excerpts—members asked for recommendations but the thread didn't resolve with named contacts. One member offered to DM details directly. **How to Connect** Several members offered to make direct introductions or provide contact details via DM. The community norm is to reach out to the thread or ask for an intro if a supplier is mentioned.
What carbonation level (g/L) should RTD sparkling spirits target to match prosecco or sparkling wine?
Members recommend targeting **5–5.2 g/L** for pasteurised RTD sparkling spirits, though this falls slightly short of true sparkling wine levels. **Key guidance:** - **Sparkling wine legal minimum** — must be over 6 g/L to be classed as sparkling; prosecco and similar typically sit at **6–7.5 g/L** - **Pasteurised product ceiling** — members report that **5.2 g/L is approximately the maximum** achievable when pasteurising, due to carbonation loss during the heat process - **5 g/L as practical compromise** — members suggest **around 5 g/L is sufficient** for an RTD sparkling spirit, acknowledging it won't quite match prosecco but will feel appropriately carbonated for the category - **Bottles vs. cans** — better carbonation retention is possible in glass bottles versus cans, and post-pasteurisation carbonation injection can help, but pasteurisation itself remains the limiting factor - **Non-pasteurised option** — if pasteurisation can be avoided, higher levels (6–7.5 g/L) become achievable, but this requires different preservation methods **Caveat:** The gap between achievable (5–5.2 g/L) and aspirational (6–7.5 g/L) is a known trade-off when pasteurising. Members accepted 5 g/L as workable rather than pursuing the full prosecco experience.
What are cost-effective sources for UK spirits and RTD market data, and what current retail value data is available?
Members face the same challenge: IWSR and traditional market research are expensive. Here's what the community actually does: **DIY research options:** - Search trademark and brand-name availability yourself across UK, EU, and USA platforms (free but labour-intensive; USA particularly complex with overlapping trademarks). Note that trademark classes 33 (spirits) and 32 (beers) overlap, so check both. **Consultants and studios:** - **United Creatives** (Manchester) — suggested as a potential affordable data source - **Joe Bowker at Gorilla Studio** (Manchester) — recommended for market research support **Shared community data:** - Members have begun sharing internal spreadsheets (e.g. "United Kingdom_Spirits.xlsx" — 2023 data) within the group. Andy has shared a detailed spirits document; he was also checking for similar RTD-category-specific breakdowns. Ask directly in the group if members will share what they've compiled. **Caveat:** One member noted that ChatGPT and generic online searches don't account for international trademarks and may miss nuance. The community's own pooled data and consultant recommendations are more reliable than generic tools.
What are the current MOQs and where can we source printed and wrapped RTD cans in the UK?
Printed cans currently have very high minimum order quantities—members report that printed options are difficult to access under 300,000 units, making them impractical for many small producers right now. For wrapped and labelled cans at more manageable volumes, the picture is better: - **Wrapped/labelled cans** — Achievable from around 12,000 units upwards; several members confirmed this is viable and indicated willingness to share specific supplier contacts direct message. - **Oasthouse** — Named as a potential supplier, though members also flagged significant operational challenges; one noted "Oasthouse are generally a nuisance to deal with" and another reported that Bloody Drinks had "a nightmare" going through them. Use with caution. - **Crown** — Previously used by members but their MOQs were reported as "getting crazy earlier this year," making them less competitive. - **Ball** — Members asked for contacts but no specific feedback was provided in the discussion. **Key caveat:** The printed-can market is tight right now. Members described it as "a nightmare" and advised that achieving true printed cans under 300,000 units is "very tough" or not currently possible. Wrapped or labelled alternatives are the realistic short-term option for smaller runs.
What are realistic sales volumes and ROI for RTD products in major UK grocery retailers like WH Smith?
RTD sales performance in major UK grocery retailers is challenging and heavily dependent on retailer terms. **WH Smith** is one of the most expensive entry points in the market: expect a £20–30k upfront investment in their marketing suite, with listing fees around £500 per store. Return on sales (ROS) is typically 6–8 cans per store per SKU per week in regular stores, though higher in travel locations (train stations, airports). Over a year, this translates to roughly 600 cans per store per SKU annually—a volume that few brands can profitably sustain at standard wholesale margins. Members report that WH Smith's alcohol licence expansion has been slow despite promises (one member noted only 35 of a promised 120 licences materialised). Several members have terminated WH Smith contracts after finding the marketing investment unrecoverable relative to sales. The general consensus is that only established brands with significant scale (e.g., MOTH) can make the unit economics work. **LCB offers EDI integration** if you proceed. Key caveat: one member advised "certainly not rushing back soon" after their WH Smith experience, citing the gap between promised and actual performance.
Which UK parcel delivery services work best for distributing RTD products?
Members have tested most major UK couriers for RTD distribution with mixed, location-dependent results. No single provider consistently outperforms others, but communication quality and reliability vary significantly by region. Services members have trialled: - **DPD Red** — preferred for communication; members are giving it another chance after issues elsewhere, though experiences vary - **DPD Local** — mixed feedback; some find it "the least smash quota" despite problems, others report poor performance - **APC** — tried but not highlighted as preferred - **Parcelforce** — tested but not recommended - **DX Couriers** — tested but members moved away Members noted that performance appears highly locality-dependent, so courier reliability may vary significantly depending on your distribution region. Communication quality from DPD Red was specifically cited as a strength compared to other options tested.
Who can help improve an RTD recipe, and what liquid development support is available?
Members recommend reaching out to **Sam Pembridge** as a liquid developer who can assist with RTD recipe improvement and development. This appears to be a go-to contact within the community for recipe refinement work on ready-to-drink products.
Do RTD beverages need duty stamps or VAT stickers when imported to the UK?
RTD beverages do not require duty stamps when imported, even if they contain spirits fortification. Members clarified that duty stamps (which differ from VAT stickers) are not applicable to RTDs. For the definitive rules on which products require duty stamps, refer to the UK government's Excise Notice DS5 on the UK duty stamps scheme, particularly Section 3, which sets out the full list of products subject to the requirement. If your RTD is non-fermented and fortified with spirits, duty stamps do not apply based on community experience.
How should RTD volume be calculated and reported as case equivalents when the ABV differs significantly from standard spirits?
RTD reporting requires a conversion methodology to compare volumes against standard spirit case equivalents. Members use two practical approaches: - **Diageo's 10x volume method** — treats RTD volume as 1/10th of a standard case equivalent by ABV ratio (90L of RTD ≈ 1 × 9L case equivalent), based on the logic that spirits are ~40% ABV and RTDs are approximately 1/10th of that. - **Spirit content method** — calculate the actual spirit volume required to produce the RTD batch, then use that as the case equivalent. For example, a 20L KeyKeg of spritz requiring 5L of base spirit would be reported as 5L case equivalent. Members note this is "probably not the 'right' way" by industry standard but works logically for internal tracking and is easy to apply consistently.
What are the options for canning small volumes (under 10k cans) of ready-to-drink products?
Members have identified several co-packers willing to work on low MOQs for canning RTD products. The key constraint is that most require finished product (post-carbonation) rather than offering blending services. - **Point Cocktails** — contact Hayden; members report willingness to work on low-volume projects - **Can It (Bolton)** — successfully worked with members on 4,000 cans per SKU; offers fast turnaround (approximately 2 weeks) but requires finished product delivered in IBC format rather than blending in-house; no carbonation capability, so carbonation must be completed before delivery - **Bottled & Canned** — mentioned as a potential option for low-MOQ canning - **MC/Bibendum** — reported to be "great" for small runs, though no specific MOQ details were shared **Key limitation:** Most canners on low MOQs do not offer product blending. You'll need to deliver finished, carbonated product in IBC containers, which they then fill into cans. This means you must handle carbonation separately before sending to the canner. Plan accordingly for your production timeline.
What is the cost-benefit of exhibiting at major trade shows like BCB, and what should we know about category restrictions for RTD products?
BCB (London edition) is new territory with no established ROI data yet from the community. Members flag that RTD product categories face exhibitor restrictions that can significantly impact costs. **Key considerations:** - **Category restrictions on RTDs** — Members report being barred from the Local Heroes stand if RTD products are part of the portfolio, forcing a move to more expensive booth options (One Brand tier mentioned as "considerable extra cost"). This is a hard constraint to budget for. - **Potential workaround** — One member suggested featuring a non-RTD product alongside RTDs may help navigate category restrictions, though they note the policy is "mad." - **No historical benchmark** — BCB London is the first edition, so there is no community feedback yet on actual contact quality, deal flow, or ROI to compare against booth spend. **Caveat:** Members emphasise this is untested ground for the London show. Budget for category-driven cost increases, but expect to gather your own ROI data rather than relying on precedent.
Where can I source small-volume blank cans for low-batch RTD cocktail products?
Finding small-volume can suppliers is challenging, as the major manufacturers have high minimum order quantities. Members recommend: - **Oasthouse Engineering** — confirmed to handle low volumes. Contact: 01709 780675 or canorders@oasthouseengineering.co.uk Larger suppliers to avoid for small batches include Ardagh, Ball, Crown, and Canit, all of which have very high MOQs that make them unsuitable for low-volume producers. Members also suggest requesting design templates from other producers in the community to streamline the ordering process.
What is the correct conversion rate for cans to 9L case equivalents for regulatory reporting?
Members use different approaches depending on whether they're converting packaged cans or calculating spirit equivalents for RTD/cocktail products. **For canned beverages:** The straightforward method is to divide physical case sales by 3. Since 12 × 250ml cans = 3L in a physical case, three physical cases = 9L case equivalent. So simply divide your invoiced physical sales by 3 to get your 9L reporting figure. **For RTD and spirit-based products:** Members use volume-based equivalency rather than a fixed ratio: - **Diageo's historical approach** — used 10× the volume as a case equivalent (so 90L of RTD = 1 × 9L case equivalent), based on the logic that spirits are ~40% ABV and RTDs are roughly 1/10th of that strength. - **Actual spirit content method** — some members calculate based on the actual spirit volume used to create the product. For example, if a 20L KeyKeg of a spirit-based RTD contains enough to make 125 cocktails with 4cl spirit each, that's 5L of spirit equivalent to report—described as "probably not the 'right' way" but "very logical and it works." **Caveat:** Members noted uncertainty about which is the "official" method for regulatory purposes, so clarifying with your local regulatory body (HMRC/equivalent) on which approach they expect is recommended.
Which suppliers can provide 250ml slim can filling services on short turnaround for multiple SKUs?
Members report that finding reliable 250ml slim can filling on short notice is challenging, but a few options exist. **Key recommendations:** - **Envirocan** — mentioned as a newer entrant that members believe can deliver quick turnarounds on 250ml slim can filling. Worth contacting for emergency jobs. **What to expect:** Members are actively dealing with urgent 250ml slim can fill requests (3,000+ units across 4–5 SKUs, pasteurised) and report that some established canning companies have poor reliability and customer service despite meeting capacity. The recommendation is to vet operators carefully—at least one member experienced significant issues with a major supplier and plans to share details once their current stock collection is complete. **Approach:** If approaching new or less-known fillers, confirm they can handle your raw material supply model (wet and dry supplied by you) and meet pasteurisation and turnaround requirements before committing.
What is the correct excise commodity code for canned RTD spirits at reduced ABV?
For canned RTD spirits at reduced ABV (below the original spirit's proof), members confirm the commodity code is **2208 90 69**, classified as "other spirituous beverage in containers holding 2 litres or less." This applies even when the finished product is significantly lower ABV than the base spirit (e.g., rum-based RTDs diluted from 40% to 6% ABV). The CN code 2208 90 00 is the parent code; 2208 90 69 is the specific classification for sub-2L containers. Multiple members verified this classification with their own advisors, confirming consistency across the community.