Ask the Collective
The questions independent drinks founders ask most — answered. Distilled from years of community knowledge so the good stuff never disappears in the feed again.
What should you know before exhibiting at BBC Good Food Show and other major trade shows—what sells, what's the ROI, and what are the logistics?
Trade show ROI varies significantly; several members reported mixed or poor returns. **BBC Good Food Show (Birmingham)** has worked well for some (profitable enough to justify the cost), but others found weak ROI due to high volumes of freebie-seekers and casual attendees rather than serious buyers. Members who exhibited reported that attendance by serious trade buyers drops significantly mid-October through Christmas as the industry focuses on Christmas trading. **What sells:** Members with Seedlip and Bounce! experience found success, though specific product recommendations weren't detailed in feedback shared. Hard seltzers and spirits were offered as samples. **Logistics and venue concerns:** - **Excel events** (including IDE—Industry Drinks Event) are frequently criticised for poor ROI relative to cost and notorious logistical disorganisation. Several members warned explicitly to "avoid" Excel events due to these issues. - Exhibiting typically requires samples for tastings, stand setup, and freight handling. **Forwarder contacts for inbound/outbound shipments:** - **Vidale Nordest** — used for Italy shipments, may work bidirectionally - **Alpi UK** — successfully used for Germany shipments - **Supply Chain 21** — Richard Jones (richard.jones@supplychain21.com) can assist with logistics - Avoid **Albatrans** (reportedly refusing Italy shipments) and **Hillebrand** (described as difficult to work with) **Caveat:** One exhibitor's 2019 experience was very negative; event quality and attendee composition appear highly variable. The consensus leans toward caution: unless you have a specific, targeted reason to exhibit, the cost often doesn't justify the outcome, especially at larger events like those at Excel.
How can drinks founders get Amazon customer service to respond when automated systems block account inquiries?
Amazon's customer service has become increasingly automated and difficult to reach. Members report that speaking to a human representative now requires hitting revenue thresholds, though these appear to move as you grow. **Revenue thresholds:** Members mention £250k and £500k annual turnover minimums mentioned by Amazon, though some report the goalposts shift upward once you reach each target. **Tactics that have worked:** - **All-caps application submissions** — One member had repeated rejections until they rewrote their application entirely in capital letters, which was then approved immediately. - **Repeated escalation requests** — Pre-2021, persistence and explicit requests to escalate to a manager eventually got results, though this may be less effective now. **Reality check:** Members are frustrated that despite doing £250k+ and £500k+ pa, they still cannot access a human account manager. The consensus is that Amazon's support infrastructure has degraded significantly and the revenue thresholds appear designed to be a moving target—you may never actually qualify.
When should a brand switch from a retainer-based distributor to other models, and what alternatives exist in the UK?
If a retainer-based distributor isn't delivering results and the model is unprofitable after fees and commissions, it's worth exploring alternatives rather than staying with underperforming partners out of inertia. **Key alternative models members recommend:** - **Tortuga** — Handles logistics and warehousing so you retain margin; you then recruit your own sales team. Members suggest this can be cheaper than traditional retainer models and provides access to online retailers. - **No-retainer distributor partnerships** — Seek distributors (like Cask, Paragon, or Proof Drinks) willing to work on commission-only or performance-based terms rather than fixed retainers. This aligns their incentives with your success. - **Own UK importing company** — Setting up your own entity avoids distributor fees entirely, but requires boots-on-the-ground presence and operational overhead. - **Direct-to-retail targeting** — Focus on 5–10 hyper-relevant, high-end accounts (1–4 sites each) and build deep relationships there; volume follows when venues love the product. - **Direct online channels** — Amazon UK can work well with modest paid ad spend (especially seasonal), and may generate better returns than slow trade channels. **Context and caveats:** - The UK market is currently challenging (Brexit, cost of living, retail consolidation, pay-to-play models). - Trade channels move slowly; high-end on-premise wins may not translate to volume. - Big-box retailers (Waitrose, major chains) are difficult to crack and distributors often struggle to secure listings there. - Being based overseas makes boots-on-the-ground execution harder; consider whether you can commit time or hire UK-based salespeople. - Members suggest exploring conversations with Ciaran Macnic (Tortuga) or the Cask/Paragon/Proof teams to understand their specific terms.
What is the typical sales ratio between Amazon and specialty online retailers like Whiskey Exchange?
Members shared mixed ratios depending on their scale and product positioning. Amazon typically dominates online channel sales, but the specific ratio varies: - **Amazon vs Whiskey Exchange (TWE)**: One member reported TWE at approximately 5% of their Amazon sales volume - **Amazon vs broader specialty trade**: Another member noted Amazon is roughly 4–5 times larger than their combined specialty retailer sales **Important caveat**: Members acknowledged difficulty in accurately segmenting and tracking sales data across channels, particularly distinguishing between different specialty retailers. The ratios are heavily dependent on brand size, product positioning, and how effectively you're distributed across specialty channels. One member noted that much of the online volume spike came during lockdown periods. **Commission consideration**: Members also flagged that specialty retailers charge significant commissions (25–35%), which can make smaller volume partnerships unprofitable even with promotional support.
What is the current sales performance and experience with NOT IN THE HIGH ST as a retail channel?
NOT IN THE HIGH ST has experienced a significant decline in sales volume for members over the past couple of years. The channel was previously strong for seasonal peaks (Father's Day events generating around 500 bottles), but has contracted sharply as competition has intensified. **Key findings:** - **Volume decline** — Members report dropping from ~200 bottles/month baseline with seasonal peaks of ~500 (Father's Day) down to approximately 20 bottles/month currently. This decline is attributed to increased competition as other sellers discovered and leveraged the personalisation angle that initially worked well on the platform. - **Timing** — The significant drop-off began after Christmas (noted as "very quiet for us since Christmas" in recent discussions). - **Current assessment** — The consensus is that NOT IN THE HIGH ST has become oversaturated and is no longer a reliable sales channel for most members. While the platform may still generate occasional orders, members should expect substantially lower volumes than in previous years and plan alternative revenue channels accordingly.
How successful is Faire as a sales channel for non-alcoholic beverages in the US?
Members have seen real results using Faire for non-alc sales in the US, though success depends on effort invested. One member achieved **44x ROAS with a Faire campaign in 16 days**, demonstrating strong potential. However, another noted they didn't put significant effort or investment into the platform and saw limited traction as a result. **Three Spirit** reported doing "reasonably well" on the platform and is open to sharing experiences with others interested in the channel. The key takeaway is that Faire can work for non-alcs but requires active investment and strategy to see meaningful returns.
What is the optimal split between direct sales and distributor relationships for on-trade and off-trade channels?
Members' actual practices vary significantly by channel. On-trade (bars, restaurants) and off-trade (retail, online) require different approaches: **Channel Split by Type:** - **On-trade:** Mostly via wholesalers/distributors, with limited direct sales - **Off-trade:** Mostly direct, with some distributor relationships **Overall Trade Sales Distribution:** A poll of the community showed the most common approach is mostly via distributors with some direct (23 votes), followed by mostly direct with some via distributors (9 votes). Some members operate all direct (5 votes) or all via distributors (7 votes). Early-stage businesses like Wednesday's Domaine operate at roughly 50/50 between direct and distributor volume. **Key Insight:** The on-trade/off-trade split is the critical distinction—on-trade typically requires distributor relationships for scale and access, while off-trade allows for more direct customer relationships and margin retention.
What commission rates do major online drink marketplaces charge, and is there room to negotiate?
Most members report fixed commission structures with limited negotiation potential, particularly at lower volumes. **NOTHS** charges around 25% base commission, with members reporting no success negotiating this rate down. Promotional features push costs significantly higher: members noted that opting into additional promotional activity increases **NOTHS** commission to 35%, which can become loss-making despite increased volumes. **Amazon** typically generates 4–5 times the sales volume compared to specialist retailers and traditional wine merchants, suggesting a tiered approach to marketplace strategy rather than reliance on a single channel. Members emphasise that commission negotiation is largely unsuccessful at smaller volumes, suggesting scale is a prerequisite for better terms.
What do members actually experience with Amazon marketing agencies, and how much ad spend is typically needed to drive meaningful traffic?
Members report that Amazon marketing agencies are only effective if you have significant ad budget behind them—organic traffic doesn't materialise simply by listing on the platform. Ad spend is the most significant factor in driving sales. **Agencies members have used:** - **E-works** — reported to have delivered some success. - **Mercatus Agency** — members have had success and can make introductions. - **Rosetta** — achieved ranking (Kin Vodka to #1 in flavoured vodka category), but requires sustained spend of £2k+ per month to be competitive. **Key findings:** - One wholesaler approached members offering to add 11% markup on wholesale price but stalled after initial sales dried up, then pushed paid ad packages. - Members warn that competing against yourself is a real problem if multiple retailers stock your product on Amazon. - Without the budget to compete with major brands, members describe the effort as ineffective for smaller drinks brands. - **Realistic spend threshold:** £2k+/month appears to be the minimum to achieve meaningful rankings in competitive categories like vodka. **Caveat:** For gin brands and smaller producers, the consensus is sceptical—Amazon paid advertising may not deliver ROI unless you can sustain high monthly ad spend. Members emphasise that agency quality matters far less than the budget you allocate to them.