Ask the Collective
The questions independent drinks founders ask most — answered. Distilled from years of community knowledge so the good stuff never disappears in the feed again.
What are the red flags for identifying fraudulent bulk order requests and scam distributors?
Several patterns consistently signal scam orders and fraudulent distributors: **Email and communication red flags:** - Generic greeting lines like "I hope this email finds you well" are a strong warning sign - Gmail or similar free email addresses (not a company domain) for business inquiries - Generic language that doesn't mention your specific products by name - Extremely large orders (e.g. 70,000+ bottles) that seem unrealistic for the contact method - Orders placed via email where the person stops responding when asked for a phone call to discuss - Contact email address that differs from the retailer's official domain **Verification steps:** - **Phone call test** — Always insist on a phone conversation with large or suspicious inquiries; scammers typically stop responding - **DBT/DIT trade advisors** — Members recommend contacting your Department for Business and Trade (or former DIT) trade advisor, who maintains a blacklist of known scam companies and can cross-check against international counterparts (e.g. French authorities) - **Company research** — Poor SEO presence or website quality can indicate a shell operation - **Reference example** — One member was approached by a company claiming to be Laval Distribution (lavaldistributionste.net) with a 70,000-bottle order; when a phone call was requested, emails stopped immediately **Historical context:** Members have encountered recurring waves of these scams; one member reported that when they escalated a suspicious French distributor to DBT, their trade advisor immediately contacted French counterparts, who confirmed it was fraudulent.
What is the ROI and effectiveness of attending major drinks trade shows like Taste of London, Spirit of Christmas, and Barcode—especially without a dedicated bar stand?
Trade shows deliver mixed returns depending on your product type, the show's audience composition, and how well you activate. Here's what members have learned: **Taste of London** — A consumer-focused event, not primarily a trade play. Members report a good mix of trade and consumers, but ROI varies widely depending on activation quality. The summer event draws fewer trade/press benefits than expected; the winter event performs better for bottle sales (gifting purchases). RTD brands selling for on-site consumption do reasonable volumes, but cans don't move well—people attend to consume, not take inventory home. One member found the winter event "slightly better than summer for people buying bottles for gifting." **Spirit of Christmas** — Expect heavy sampling and mixed results from participating brands. One member reported "some great, some dogs." Cost can be shared effectively with complementary brands (e.g., pairing with another category to split stand costs). No members reported strong revenue gains; it's better positioned as brand awareness than a revenue driver. **Barcode** — Hard to measure direct ROI, but members consider it a "must" for visibility if you want to get in front of all major grocers. One member noted it's "an important place to be" if you have solid relationships with multiple buyers already. Multiple small stands can be more cost-effective than one large one. Effectiveness depends heavily on pre-existing buyer relationships; without them, the value diminishes significantly. **Key caveats:** Without a bar stand, you're limited to sampling and bottle/case sales—which works for gifting/RTD but not for impulse consumption. Setup effort can be substantial relative to returns. Trade shows work best as part of a broader strategy if you have existing relationships to leverage.
What ROI and business outcomes should drinks producers expect from trade shows?
Trade show effectiveness varies significantly by event, company stage, and strategy. Rather than expecting immediate deal closure, successful members focus on sampling, brand awareness, and relationship-building as primary objectives. **Event-specific outcomes:** - **Trade Drinks Expo** — One member reported being "run off our feet all day" with "zero down time," indicating strong visitor traffic and engagement. - **Unnamed show (Shanky's Whip)** — Described as "not the busiest and probably not a good ROI" but valuable for making good industry contacts. **Recommended approach:** - Focus on product sampling and getting "liquid on lips" rather than closing deals at the event itself. One member estimated this strategy would yield 5–10 listings from conversations, with impact driven by word-of-mouth and brand awareness. - Use the show to build relationships with potential stockists and industry peers; formal orders often follow post-event. - Expect networking value beyond direct sales, particularly for younger or emerging brands. **Caveats:** - Shell scheme stands create a poor atmosphere and may indicate a lower-quality event; consider stand placement and event reputation carefully. - ROI depends heavily on the specific show and your target buyer base—not all trade shows are equally productive. - Budget for ongoing engagement (coffee, refreshments) throughout the day.
What are the staffing requirements and sales expectations for Costco depot event days?
Costco event days in depots require significant commitment: you must staff the stand yourself for the full day (typically 9:30am–9:30pm), and Costco is strict about presentation standards throughout. You cannot rely on Costco to provide your staff. **Staffing options:** - **Own staff** — Members who ran 9 four-day events across Oct–Dec 2024 found this preferable to third-party suppliers, giving better control and engagement - **Avansa** — A specialist supplier for depot trade-day staffing across cash-and-carry venues; they know the customer base and are well-regarded. Contact via DM in the group - **WDS** (Costco's in-house recommendation) — Available through the link provided, but members found them "a bit 'table with a table'" and less effective than hired promotional staff **Expectations:** - Members described the event schedule as "gruelling" and "brutal" (full 9am–9:30pm days) - One member completed 155 events in late 2023/early 2024 and can advise on specifics - Sales expectations were not quantified in the discussion **Key caveat:** The group felt in-house Costco staff (if available) are not as good as your own or professional promotional teams. Plan for significant internal resource commitment or budget for external staffing.
What commission structure and KPI framework should we use for early-stage on-trade sales hires, and how should we handle wholesaler-attributed versus new account sales?
Members handle commission agreements and KPI expectations as separate formal documents included in the hiring process. **Structure and documentation:** - **LawDepot** — members use this website to draft commission agreements in-house, then include the agreement in the employment contract itself - **Separate KPI expectations letter** — send this as a standalone document for the new hire to sign, keeping performance metrics distinct from contractual terms **On-trade commission design (wholesaler vs. new accounts):** - The community has discussed the distinction between rewarding all sales into wholesalers versus attributing commission only to accounts the salesperson has personally won, but no consensus recommendation on % splits or bonus structures was shared in this discussion **Caveats:** This excerpt captures the process framework members use (LawDepot + dual-document approach) but does not include the specific commission percentages, bonus triggers, or the recommended approach to wholesaler attribution that members asked about. Members were actively seeking to share detailed structures via DM, suggesting best practices exist in the community but weren't posted in the main thread.
What should we expect from exhibiting at Berlin Cocktail Club and how can we maximize ROI?
Berlin Cocktail Club (BCB) is a large professional trade show with genuine buyer interest and market-opening opportunities, though logistics and venue logistics require attention. **What members experienced:** - **Market opportunities**: Multiple members reported opening 3+ new markets from a single BCB exhibition, though opportunities required follow-up (credit checks, confirmations). - **Scale**: The show approximately doubled in size year-on-year, with serious buyers actively seeking new brands and willing to explore the venue to find them. - **Logistics challenges**: Do **not use DHL** for shipping stock to the show; also be aware that **customs may confiscate stock** that hasn't been properly cleared in advance, so coordinate clearance before the event. - **Venue considerations**: The current venue lacks the charm of the previous railway station location, but doesn't prevent business outcomes. **Booth placement matters**—downstairs booths can be missed by casual visitors, though serious buyers will search them out. - **Networking value**: The show provides genuine opportunities to meet other UK drinks founders and industry peers. **Caveats**: Expect to do significant legwork beyond the stand itself to convert opportunities into confirmed orders. Customs delays are a real risk; plan clearance logistics early.
What are the realistic sales outcomes and buyer engagement opportunities from retail pop-up platforms like Raye?
Retail pop-up platforms like Raye should be viewed primarily as a **buyer showcase opportunity** rather than a direct-to-consumer sales channel. Members report modest direct sales (one example: around 36 units for a functional mushroom beverage at a Raye spot), but the real value lies in connecting with retail buyers. **Raye** regularly brings buyers down to events—members confirmed seeing 3 Waitrose buyers booked for a single edition—and offers space to run tasting events in central locations. The platform works best if you treat it as a networking and retail placement opportunity. Members also recommend confirming customer demand before committing resources, and some have hosted their own sample sessions at Raye locations to meet both the store team and potential stockists. For in-store tasting procurement costs at major retailers (e.g. Sainsbury's via Nectar 360), members indicated this information is available but recommend reaching out directly or via DM to get current pricing from those who've recently managed such placements.
What is the most effective go-to-market approach for a newly launched beverage brand targeting high-end on-trade accounts?
For newly launched beverage brands targeting high-end on-trade, face-to-face founder-led selling is significantly more effective than digital outreach alone. **Go-to-market tactics:** - **Founder-led face-to-face sales** — Direct visits from the founder have more persuasive power than emails, calls, LinkedIn, or social media, but require highly targeted account selection to be efficient - **Bottom-up approach** — Build momentum from smaller or mid-tier accounts before approaching tier-one venues; this establishes credentials and case studies for premium on-trade pitches **Key principle:** Be ruthlessly selective about which accounts you target in person; the founder's time is the constraint, not reach. Quality targeting beats volume outreach at this stage.
Should a small spirits brand build an internal sales team or work with a distributor to grow distribution?
The choice depends heavily on brand maturity, geography, and long-term exit strategy. Both approaches have distinct trade-offs. **Distributor Route:** - **Reduces upfront investment** — blending your brand into an existing portfolio cuts costs compared to hiring a dedicated sales team - **Serves as a reality check** — distribution through a distributor is "the moment of truth" for whether the brand resonates with the trade at scale; this can be more objective than founder assumptions - **Portfolio dilution risk** — your brand becomes one of many; sales staff will not talk exclusively about your brand, so visibility may be lower - **Works best with niche, high-quality distributors** — a hybrid approach with a distributor who has several premium brands and a strong on-trade network can accelerate growth while keeping payroll lean **Internal Sales Team Route:** - **Founder advantage** — founders typically close more business than hired salespeople because buyers value relationships with founders and you know the brand best - **Stage matters significantly**: Early days (geographic focus) — hire a small, passionate, charismatic person to build trade relationships locally; no need for a big salary. National accounts — expect much higher salaries, longer sales cycles, and substantial listing fees and rebates - **Long-term investment** — regional and national teams rarely show ROI in year one; this is a multi-year play - **Benchmark value** — employing salespeople can serve as a strategic benchmark for where your brand actually sits in the market, providing a reality check on distribution targets and ROS **Hybrid Approach (Emerging Best Practice):** - Work with a strong distributor to build brand recognition and performance within their portfolio, then reinvest profits (not spent on a large team) into your own small sales team as the brand matures - Keep founder actively selling (delegate ops/finance to others) — this usually generates better ROI than hiring expensive salespeople early **Critical Consideration:** - Clarify your exit strategy first. Whether you plan to sell the brand or build it for ongoing profit shapes how much you should invest in a sales force and for how long.
What are the key success factors for getting spirits stocked in on-trade venues?
Contacts alone won't get you stocked—the product, brand positioning, and pricing must work for the venue first. Members emphasize that relationships are helpful but not sufficient; a strong brand reputation is equally critical. **The three pillars of successful on-trade distribution:** - **Desirable brand** — A genuinely strong product with market appeal. Members note that venues won't push products that don't fit their positioning or are perceived as poor quality, and that having a "black book" of contacts is useless if the brand itself is weak. - **Great contacts** — Established relationships with venue owners and decision-makers are valuable but only when paired with a product worth promoting. Members caution against "stretching the friendship" by pitching unsuitable brands. - **Cash** — Capital to support the placement through visibility, activation, events, and consumer engagement once the product is stocked. **Recommended approach:** - **The "Chicken and Egg" strategy** — Identify multiple opportunities with proven volume commitments, bring them to the supplier/wholesaler, and squeeze from both sides (venues and supplier) until the wholesaler is confident the product won't sit on shelves. Only then should the venue take it on. - **Post-stocking execution** — Once in an account, the hard work begins: drive sales through visibility, activation, events, and consumer engagement. Simply getting stocked is only the start. **Key caution:** Going in cold to the market is extremely difficult. Even an experienced on-trade sales person with existing contacts cannot overcome a weak product or poor brand positioning.
How should a founder split their time between direct selling and business operations when starting out?
Founders typically win more business than hired salespeople because they know the brand better and buyers value direct founder relationships. The optimal time allocation depends on your stage and strategy. **Early-stage approach:** Focus heavily on direct selling in a small geographic area, building relationships in trade venues and maintaining regular contact. You don't need an expensive salesperson yet—prioritise someone passionate and charismatic who can convince bar owners to stock your products. **Operational support:** Hire in other areas like ops and finance so you can spend more time selling—the activity that matters most. This keeps your payroll small while freeing you to do what only you can do effectively. **National/commercial accounts:** Once pursuing bigger accounts, expect longer sales cycles, higher listing fees, and heavy rebates. This is when hiring more experienced (and expensive) sales talent becomes necessary. **Hybrid distributor model:** Consider using a good distributor with niche, high-quality brands and strong on-trade networks. Let them do the heavy lifting while you focus on making your brand their top performer. Keep your own team small and build profits until you either attract larger distributors or have capital to expand your own sales effort. **Exit strategy matters:** Members noted that your time allocation should align with your long-term exit strategy—whether you're building for acquisition, sustainable profits, or rapid growth. Members emphasised that founders often accomplish more in a day than typical salespeople do in a week, making direct selling the highest-leverage use of founder time.
Can I sell directly to venue chains like Drinks Club, or must I work through a distributor?
Venue chains typically prefer to consolidate orders through recommended distributors rather than open direct accounts with multiple small brands, but direct sales are possible if demand is significant enough. **Distribution route:** Members report that **Tortuga Logistics** is Drinks Club's recommended supplier for small and new brands. They consolidate orders to reduce the venue's supplier base, which is a pressure many wholesalers face. However, this doesn't lock you out of direct sales—if you can demonstrate strong demand, venues can be persuaded to buy direct (as some wholesalers do for larger brands). **Key requirement for any route:** Whether you go direct or through a distributor like Tortuga, you still need your own sales person or team to actively sell the product in. The distributor handles logistics consolidation, not the sales effort. **Practical next step:** If a venue specifies a preferred distributor, you can still work with that distributor as your sales channel. Build demand through your own sales activity, and once you've proven volume, renegotiate direct supply if needed.
Who are the key buying contacts at major UK wine and spirits wholesalers like Bibendum, and how do members approach getting stocked?
Getting spirits stocked in major wholesalers requires identifying the right buying contact. Members report that **Bibendum**'s spirits buying falls under **Matt Clark Beverages (MCB)**, where the key contact is **Romain**. Members recommend reaching out directly to these contacts and note that having clear performance data (like break-even analysis or media coverage) can strengthen pitches. One member reported having "really good results with a few brands" through this approach and offered to share their experience directly. The process appears to involve direct outreach to category buyers rather than formal submission portals.
What is the best approach to pitch a spirit to bar managers, and what should you prepare in terms of ROI calculations and cocktail serves?
Members recommend preparing two key elements before approaching bar managers: worked-out signature cocktail serves featuring your spirit, and clear ROI calculations showing the bar's profit margin on those serves. - **Chris Maffeo** is noted as a key resource in the community for bar pitch strategy and has created written guides on this topic—worth reaching out directly. - Research comparable spirits and their bar margins to build credible ROI projections for your specific serves. - Have 2–3 signature cocktail recipes ready that showcase your spirit's unique qualities and appeal to the bar's target customer. Caveats: The community discussion was brief and did not provide specific templates, pricing structures, or detailed case studies. For more tactical depth, members suggest contacting Chris Maffeo directly or requesting his written resources.
Is Amazon Vendor Central (1st party selling) worth pursuing, and what are the pros and cons?
Amazon Vendor Central, also known as 1st party selling, is generally considered worth pursuing. Here's what members reported: **Advantages:** - No stock issues — Amazon holds inventory - Access to promotional opportunities including Deal of the Day participation - Possibility of having a dedicated UK-based vendor manager (buyer) to discuss promotions and joint business plans **Disadvantages:** - Amazon may use pricing power to compress your margins — members warned they "might price gouge you for the privilege" Members recommended treating a Vendor Central email as a positive signal and exploring the opportunity, while being prepared to negotiate firmly on commercial terms.
Which recruitment firms or services does the community recommend for finding drinks industry talent, particularly sales interns?
Members have recommended **Marvel Recruitment** as a specialist in the drinks industry. The contact is jake@marvelfmcg.co.uk; the founder has an ex-spirits background and has indicated a willingness to offer a discount to Kindred members. For sales intern recruitment specifically, members have found success but no alternative specialist platforms or firms were named in the discussion. The recommendation is to start with Marvel Recruitment given their drinks industry expertise.