Ask the Collective
The questions independent drinks founders ask most — answered. Distilled from years of community knowledge so the good stuff never disappears in the feed again.
What margins and commitments do major UK retailers expect from drinks suppliers?
Retailer margins vary significantly by channel and retailer type. **Off-trade (retail) margins** typically range from 25–40%, though some premium retailers push higher and occasional outliers demand 70%. **Premium supermarkets** (Waitrose, Sainsbury's) calculate margin as NOG (Net on Gross, including VAT), targeting 20–25%; **value supermarkets** (Tesco, Asda) use POR (Profit on Return, ex-VAT), targeting 27–32%. Margins are often blended between on-promotion and off-promotion prices, and the retailer will guide expected basket mix. **Premium independent retailers** like Daylesford may expect margins around 55%. **On-trade (pub) margins** are much higher: independent pubs typically seek 60–75% gross profit (calculated on per-serve pricing, e.g. 10 serves × 6 margin = 60% vs. purchase price). Pubs standard gross profit is 70–72%. **Harrods** specifically targets gross profit of 42–45% and expects back margin of around £1m annually; spirits buyers are nick.fleming@harrods.com and wines buyers are siobhan.irons@harrods.com. A key note: Harrods' vodka and gin sales are weak (c. £3k/week) compared to whisky, Bordeaux and burgundy (£100k+/week), and baijiu and tequila significantly outsell gin and vodka—listing there is a lighthouse for brand and export positioning rather than volume. Members caution that some retailers (e.g. Whole Foods) may not suit alcohol due to margin constraints, and retailers like Cress may demand unsustainably high margins relative to volume opportunity.
How should a drinks brand structure its sales team—hiring experienced individual sales leaders, building telesales/field teams, using a fractional rep, or working with a sales agency?
There is no one-size-fits-all answer; the right approach depends on your brand stage, category, geography, and exit strategy. **Key structural options and trade-offs:** - **Experienced single sales leader** — Can leverage existing contacts and break even faster than junior hires (6–12 months vs. 1+ year for juniors). However, they're expensive, and even strong performers struggle in low-brand-loyalty environments. Risk is significant: you won't know if someone will deliver until 3 months in. - **Telesales teams (2–3 days/week)** — Lower cost model, though less effective overall. Members note most sales people are not that effective regardless of structure. - **Field/ground sales focused on on-trade wholesale** — Increasingly difficult to justify in premium spirits. Bars chase margin and deals, not brand loyalty; even winning a listing won't stick long. The opportunity cost is high and ROI is poor. - **Fractional sales rep (covering multiple brands)** — Shared cost reduces your outlay, but dilutes focus. Better for early stage or niche categories; less suitable if you need dedicated attention. London on-trade is a brutally hard market. - **Sales agency** — Worth exploring, especially for London on-trade focus (e.g., **Nomad Collection** mentioned, though one member found limited traction). Reduces hiring risk and management burden. **Stage matters:** - **Early stage:** Focus on a small geographic area, build relationships with venues, attend in-person. Hire someone passionate and charismatic, not necessarily expensive. You (the founder) will win more business than most—consider hiring ops/finance support instead so you can spend time selling. - **National/larger accounts:** More commercial approach needed; bigger salary expectations, longer conversion, and expensive listings with heavy rebates. **Financial reality:** - Budget £5,000/month for a sales role. Members report send/return of ~£600/week spend → £1,750–£2,000 return; YMMV. - Don't forget employment costs: training, pension, National Insurance, equipment, travel, expenses, and your management time. - Regional and national teams have struggled on pure annual ROI. They're typically a longer-term investment (2+ years) and only work if you feed in larger national customers to make the numbers stack. **Critical caveats:** - Category and brand quality matter. Niche or difficult categories (e.g., saké) require genuine passion and product knowledge, not just sales skills. Education of the trade is slow and hard. Pure sales ability alone may not be enough if your category is unfamiliar. - Selling exposes your brand to trade scrutiny; founders often have inflated opinions of their brand. Sales teams reveal the hard truth about your ROS and distribution readiness. This is valuable but uncomfortable. - London is the hardest market globally. If hiring one rep for London, they must be multi-skilled in pure sales, with strong input-focused KPIs (activity metrics) to catch weakness early. Activity is a dying art. - For on-trade, distributors may be a better option: you lose exclusive focus, but reduce outlay and benefit from portfolio scale. However, you'll also lose control and visibility—this is a moment of truth for your brand. - Align your sales approach to your exit strategy: Are you building to sell the business one day, or to make money along the way? This shapes investment level and timeline. - For niche categories, product and brand communication matter more than sales effort alone. Product should be easy to communicate; education is a slow path. Positioning and on-trade creativity (inspiring bartenders) can be more powerful than traditional sales technique.
What recruitment channels and specialists do members use for on-trade and off-trade sales roles, and what's experience with commission-only hiring?
Members use a mix of general job boards and specialist recruiters for drinks-industry sales roles. **Recruitment channels:** - **LinkedIn** — highly recommended for roles with defined job titles where prior experience matters; members describe it as "amazing" for this type of hiring - **Indeed** — worthwhile because "almost everyone looks on it" - **Specialist recruiters** — e.g. **Lime Recruiting**, though noted as "way more expensive" than general platforms **Recruitment specialists:** - **New Chapter Consulting** — members have used them and recommend them, saying they "have a good network of people" - **Young Foodies** — one member is currently working with them but reports it's "not proving to be that productive" **Commission-only on-trade hiring:** One member confirmed they have experience hiring commission-only on-trade sales people, but the discussion excerpts do not contain details of their approach, challenges, or recommendations. **Caveats:** The discussion shows members actively recruiting for account manager and on-trade sales roles, but most specifics are light. The commission-only experience was affirmed but not elaborated.
What is the best approach to securing and maintaining a retailer listing in the early stages on shelf?
Based on community experience, retailer launches require realistic expectations and proactive relationship management. **Key lessons from member experience:** - **Expect limited buyer responsiveness post-launch.** Members reported that after securing shelf space, communication with buyers can become difficult—one founder couldn't reach their buyer for nearly a year following a Sainsburys launch during lockdown. Buyers tend to have high workloads and slow response times despite the apparent simplicity of maintaining contact. - **Plan for early-stage support independently.** Rather than relying on retailer buyer engagement, members recommend developing your own launch plan to support the brand on shelf during the critical early period. This may include promotional activity, stock management, and point-of-sale support that doesn't depend on retailer responsiveness. - **Consider retailer selection carefully.** Launching in large national chains during volatile periods (e.g., lockdown) can amplify challenges. Timing and retailer choice matter significantly. **Caveats:** The community flagged that retailer buyer relationships are inconsistent and often frustratingly unresponsive even for basic communication. Members should plan contingency support and not assume ongoing collaboration from the retailer during the critical shelf period.
When should you enter San Francisco Spirits Awards versus Great Taste Awards for your spirits brand?
The choice depends on your primary goal and resources. **San Francisco Spirits Awards** is one of the most prestigious competitions and can help with distributor conversations and on-trade listings, especially in crowded categories where a gold or double gold signals quality. However, it's expensive to ship samples to the US and involves significantly more admin than UK alternatives. **Great Taste Awards** is better recognised by the UK public, cheaper, easier logistics, and provides a sticker you can put on your pack—making it particularly effective for building public trust and driving direct consumer sales. Members with retail experience noted that a 2–3 star award makes a measurable difference to product sales. The decision ultimately hinges on whether you're targeting distributor/on-trade credibility (San Francisco) or consumer-facing brand-building and sales lift (Great Taste). Both can be worth entering, but logistics and cost trade off against perceived audience and impact.
What recruitment agencies and strategies do Kindred members recommend for hiring drinks industry roles, and what are typical salary expectations?
## Recruitment Agencies & Contacts Members recommend several agencies with drinks industry experience: - **Marvel** — Jake Merrick-Wren recommended for recruitment - **Young Foodies** — praised for mid-level recruitment services - **CORE** — recommended for on-trade recruitment - **New Chapter** — Emma Forster (emma.forster@newchapter.co.uk) highly rated for on-trade hospitality experience - **Seven** — Lucy McMullan recommended - **The Advocate Group** — Kayleigh works with them ## Sales & Event Staff For on-trade sales roles at mid-level, members suggest: - **Fusion** and **VinoKelly** — both supply on-trade sales staff; contact Gareth or Elizabeth on +447789915197 (VinoKelly) - **Poaching ex wine or spirits sales people** — suggested as a direct sourcing strategy - For event-based sales staff (e.g., promotional events), members noted they have direct connections and recommended reaching out to the community via DM ## Salary Expectations For an operations manager with drinks industry experience (managing whisky cask, bottling planning, inventory), members suggested **£60k as a starting point**, though this varies significantly by location and operation size. Members recommended checking job listing sites like Grocer for current market rates specific to your region. ## Caveat Members noted that recruitment agencies in the drinks industry are "costly and in need of serious disruption," so budget accordingly.
What margins do independent pubs and on-trade retailers typically expect when purchasing spirits and drinks?
Independent pubs typically look for **60–75% margin**, with **70–72% gross profit** being the standard expectation. It's important to note that this margin is calculated relative to the per-serve price they sell at, not simply as a percentage of the purchase price (e.g., 10 serves × 6 = 60 vs. the purchase price of 20). Margin expectations vary by channel: - **Independent pubs**: 60–75% margin / 70–72% gross profit - **Wholesalers**: 10–25% depending on product type - **Off-trade**: 25–40% - **Promotional products**: Around 30%, potentially lower if positioned as a footfall driver Members have also asked about specific major retailers (DDC, Majestic) but concrete margin data for those chains was not shared in the discussion. The **Gross Profit app** (iOS) was recommended as a practical tool for calculating margins more easily.
What are the most effective distribution channels and strategies for getting spirits into hotels?
Hotel distribution requires patience and relationship-building rather than reliance on purchased data. Members recommend a targeted approach focusing on boutique and smaller hotel groups rather than large chains, which have longer decision cycles. **Key strategies:** - **Boutique and independent hotels** — easier to approach than major chains; offer faster decision-making and partnership opportunities - **Mini-bar positioning** — mentioned as a specific opportunity if you have the right pack format (smaller bottles) - **Case studies and differentiation** — build social proof to encourage hotels to move away from standard offerings rather than competing on commodity products - **LinkedIn outreach** — useful for lead generation and initial contact, though members note it doesn't replace deeper relationship-building and industry knowledge exchange - **Trade shows** (Hotel Restaurant & Catering show mentioned) — can generate leads but note that contacts turn over quickly, particularly post-pandemic; worth attending but don't rely solely on aged contact lists **Caveats:** - Purchased sector databases are available but members warn that contact information becomes outdated rapidly, reducing ROI - Direct data purchasing may waste budget; relationship-building and case studies appear more effective - Major hotel chains require a longer sales process; smaller groups are more accessible for emerging brands Members actively share knowledge and leads on this topic—reaching out to the community directly is encouraged.
What CRM systems do members recommend for small on-trade focused field sales teams?
**Bowimi** is the primary field sales CRM used by several Kindred members for on-trade sales. Members report it works well for setting sales targets, gathering trade marketing data, and reporting, with a solid backend for management oversight. **Considerations:** - **Cost-benefit:** At approximately £50 per user per month, Bowimi is positioned as good value when weighed against the full cost of a field sales rep (£30K salary + £20K+ in employers NI, travel expenses, and samples = £50K+ total P&L impact). - **User experience:** One member noted it's "good, but not as user-friendly as promoted," suggesting the interface may require some adjustment period despite strong functionality. - **Implementation:** Members recommend requesting a demo directly from Bowimi to evaluate fit for your team. - **Satisfaction:** Multiple users report being "broadly very happy" with it; management finds the backend intuitive for oversight and reporting. **Caveat:** Bowimi appears to be the only CRM discussed in depth by the community for this use case, so limited comparative options were shared.
How can we recruit sales staff and brand ambassadors for on-trade and regional positions in a competitive market?
Recruiting sales talent in the drinks industry is currently a candidates' market with significant shortages across the sector, even for larger producers. Members recommend these approaches: - **Direct community networking** — Post your needs in the Kindred Collective Slack/WhatsApp; members may have personal referrals or know candidates directly (peer-to-peer introductions have proven effective). - **Recruitment agencies** — Several members are currently using recruiters to fill sales and distillery roles due to the competitive landscape; specifics should be requested from members actively hiring. - **Regional targeting** — Members have successfully sourced candidates by publicly requesting recommendations for specific regions (e.g., East Anglia area), with positive responses from the network. **Important note:** Members emphasised that the current market is extremely tight and even large drinks brands are struggling to fill vacant positions. Be prepared for longer timelines and consider offering competitive terms. The group is willing to share recruiter contacts privately—reach out to members currently hiring.
How should premium brands approach on-trade distribution, and what are the best tactics for accessing major wholesalers and bar chains?
For premium on-trade placement, members highlight a multi-route approach with clear trade-offs. **Wholesaler routes:** - **Bibendum** and **Amathus** — the standard major wholesalers for high-end London bars, but members warn they have "absurd terms" and often require you to line up multiple venues simultaneously before they'll consider stocking. Tender processes for pub groups may only happen annually. - **Matthew Clark** — owns Bibendum; can sometimes facilitate listings through their "extended range" programme, allowing newer products into their portfolio without full commitment. This route is more expensive for bars than standard listings, and getting a single venue stocked is difficult. - **Specialty Drinks (Whisky Exchange)** — described as "likely easier" than Amathus or Bibendum for niche spirits (whiskies, cognacs, etc.). Members recommend asking the bar's existing wholesaler account managers to push for it as well. - **Master of Malt** — reported to facilitate Matthew Clark orders, though the relationship to Bibendum is unclear. **Direct approach:** - Members strongly recommend pushing to go **direct to high-end bars** where possible, especially in London, as bars are more likely to accept direct listings than going through wholesalers. - This avoids wholesaler friction but requires building relationships bar-by-bar. **Pub group chains:** - Members asked about **Marston's** supply chain access but no detailed tactics emerged in the discussion. **Key caveats:** Wholesalers are described as "a nightmare" with demanding terms and slow tender cycles. For a single venue, direct negotiation is preferable.
How do you access and tender for major venue group spirit supply contracts like Caprice Holdings?
Caprice Holdings runs formal spirits supply tenders targeting larger-format products (5L BiBs, bag-in-box formats). Members report the group forecasts approximately 250,000 glass bottles across all spirit categories, making it an attractive opportunity for brands with volume capacity and sustainable packaging solutions. **Access and tender mechanics:** - Your importer needs to be "strong enough" to have access to tender documents — direct relationships with the distributor or importer appear critical for receiving the tender paperwork - Brands currently tendering or considering it include **ELLC, Sapling, Duppy, Avallen**, plus own-label products like **Regal Rogue Vermouth** (5L BiBs) and premium rums in 5L format - Tenders are sent out periodically; members reported receiving one a couple of weeks prior to discussion - **Sustainability angle:** pushing larger formats and collectively messaging carbon footprint reduction appears to align with Caprice's priorities **Key takeaway:** Access depends heavily on having an established importer relationship strong enough to be on Caprice's vendor list. Without that, you won't receive tender documentation. Members emphasise this is a meaningful volume opportunity for anyone positioned to supply at scale.
What are the key considerations when deciding whether to use a distributor, and how should founders handle distributor demands for listing fees?
Members report significant frustration with distributor listing fees and upfront demands, which can substantially impact on-trade pricing and margins. **Core issue:** Distributors increasingly demand substantial upfront payments (described as €20k+ in one European case) before committing to stock your product, creating a barrier for smaller brands and affecting the pricing you can offer to on-trade venues. **Recommended approach to listing fee demands:** - **Push back firmly.** Members recommend declining unreasonable demands rather than capitulating. One founder's advice: "Tell them to have a lovely sleep in their bed." - **Understand the margin structure.** A member shared a detailed breakdown of costs and margins across distributors, wholesalers, and retailers (linked in the discussion), which helps founders see where the pressure points are and negotiate from an informed position. - **Be aware of how distributor margins compress your pricing.** The distribution chain analysis shows how each layer (distributor → wholesaler → retailer) takes a cut, ultimately affecting the price available to the on-trade and your unit economics. **Context:** Several members reported being asked for substantial fees or free stock with poor results, describing it as "being mugged for the Christmas party." The consensus is that if a distributor won't commit without large upfront payments, their enthusiasm for selling your product is questionable, and you may be better served exploring direct-to-trade or alternative routes.
Which business energy suppliers do members recommend for hospitality and on-trade premises?
Finding an energy supplier willing to work with hospitality venues can be challenging, though the market has improved. Members recommend: - **Octopus Energy** — praised as the go-to choice for several members. Easy to deal with, offers a solid back-of-house system to check readings, bills, and tariffs. - **YU** — used by members at bar premises. Caveats: **Avoid Valda** — one member reported a severe experience, describing it as a "Kafkaesque nightmare" where the supplier attempted to overcharge by £10,000. When last renewing, supplier availability for hospitality businesses was limited, though members expect this to have improved.
What industry associations and networking events are available for drinks-industry founders, particularly those looking to connect with the on-trade?
Members recommend a mix of formal industry bodies and community-led events for networking with the on-trade. **Formal associations:** - **British Distillers Association** — mentioned as a relevant membership organisation - **WSTA (Wine and Spirit Trade Association)** — praised for being helpful and supportive - **B Corp** — listed as an industry organisation worth considering **Networking approach:** Members emphasised that the most effective way to network with the on-trade is direct, grassroots engagement: spend time in bars, attend trade shows, and build brands from the bottom up. This hands-on approach is seen as more valuable than relying solely on formal association events. **Community events:** - **Kindred Spirits events** — the Kindred Collective itself hosts networking opportunities, including the Kindred Awards show (annual event) and social outings like golf days, which provide informal networking opportunities with fellow independent drinks founders. **Note:** The discussion suggests on-trade networking is less about formal association-hosted events and more about direct relationship-building in bars and at trade shows, supplemented by founder-community gatherings.
What commission structure and KPI framework should we use for early-stage on-trade sales hires, and how should we handle wholesaler-attributed versus new account sales?
Members handle commission agreements and KPI expectations as separate formal documents included in the hiring process. **Structure and documentation:** - **LawDepot** — members use this website to draft commission agreements in-house, then include the agreement in the employment contract itself - **Separate KPI expectations letter** — send this as a standalone document for the new hire to sign, keeping performance metrics distinct from contractual terms **On-trade commission design (wholesaler vs. new accounts):** - The community has discussed the distinction between rewarding all sales into wholesalers versus attributing commission only to accounts the salesperson has personally won, but no consensus recommendation on % splits or bonus structures was shared in this discussion **Caveats:** This excerpt captures the process framework members use (LawDepot + dual-document approach) but does not include the specific commission percentages, bonus triggers, or the recommended approach to wholesaler attribution that members asked about. Members were actively seeking to share detailed structures via DM, suggesting best practices exist in the community but weren't posted in the main thread.
What are examples of effective trade marketing campaigns for on-trade and off-trade channels?
Members highlighted that the best place to source trade marketing inspiration is directly from specialist agencies' portfolio work. **W Communications** (wcommunications.co.uk/aperol/) was specifically praised for their Aperol campaign as a stand-out example; members noted the founder is well-regarded, though their services are premium-priced. **Wonderworks** was also mentioned as a capable option in this space. Members recommend reviewing agency "our work" sections to see real campaign examples across both on-trade and off-trade channels rather than seeking generic case studies. On the practical side: Members were actively seeking shareable launch plans for major UK retailers like Sainsburys, particularly for early-stage shelf support during initial listings, but no concrete templates or examples were shared in the discussion. One member noted that a Sainsburys launch during lockdown was challenging, suggesting timing and circumstances significantly impact trade marketing effectiveness for retail placement.
What margins do wholesalers and food service distributors typically expect, and how do these vary by product type and channel?
Distributor and wholesaler margins vary significantly by channel and product positioning: **By channel:** - **Wholesalers** typically expect 10–25% depending on product type - **Off-trade** (bottle shops, retail) expect 25–40% - **Premium/super-premium products** sold by the bottle can command higher wholesaler margins, sometimes up to 30%, especially when distributed through specialist merchants like **Amathus**, **Venus**, **Ellis**, and **Hammonds** **Gross profit implications for brands:** - Without a distributor: 50–60% gross profit target - With a distributor: 40–50% gross profit target **Key dynamics members highlighted:** - Wholesalers and RTM teams are typically targeted on average gross profit across their entire book, not individual SKUs—so they'll accept lower margins on some products if the overall basket margin hits target - **On-trade (pubs)**: margins can vary within a single order (e.g., a mixer might carry higher margin while the spirit carries lower), as long as the overall blend works. This can be a useful negotiating angle when pitching new listings - For large contracted business, pricing is negotiated on total GP and multi-year supply agreements, not on a per-unit basis - **Brakes** (and similar major food service distributors): members asked about their specific margin expectations but no concrete answer was provided in this discussion **Caveats:** Members noted that premium/super-premium exceptions exist where margins depend heavily on what you "can get away with." Fighting over per-case margins on commodities (e.g., 25p per case of mixer = £0.01 per serve) is common but often not economically worthwhile.
What are the best distribution channels and approaches for entering the German beverages market?
Members who have entered Germany report success through multiple distribution routes. The German market was a top performer for some, particularly outside the US, UK and Asia. **Distribution approaches:** - **Direct distributor partnerships** — Members found this model effective as it provided upfront cash and the distributor handled logistics and sales operations. This was identified as a lower-friction entry route. - **Large direct reseller orders** — One member supplied a major reseller on a £150k order directly, bypassing traditional distribution. - **Amazon** — Used as a D2C wholesaler for German market entry. - **Border stores** — One member reported strong sales through border retail locations, particularly benefiting from cross-border shopping (noting Danes travelling into Germany for purchasing). **Key consideration:** Pricing varies significantly in the German market—members noted prices like £8.50 per unit and €11+ in comparable Nordic markets, suggesting strong retail margins. Understand local pricing expectations before finalising distributor terms.
What approach works best for on-trade venue activations—should brands collaborate or compete?
Members strongly favour **collaborative activations over competitive ones**, describing them as more creative and effective for building relationships with venues and audiences. **Key recommendations:** - **Partner with complementary brands** rather than competing directly. Members highlighted a successful co-branded activation as "one of the best activations I have seen in years," emphasising the value of "collaborating not competing." - **Expect venue margins of 20–25% on spirits** when working with chain venues like **Inn Express**; factor this into your activation economics. - **Build relationships with venue group decision-makers early**. Members note that venue groups like **Open House London** (which operates The Lighterman, The Broadcaster, The Italian Greyhound, and Boxcar) are worth targeting directly; introducing yourself via site visits and building rapport with marketing leadership can open doors for summer activations and menu placements. - **Be prepared to generate takings that offset activation costs**—members joked about running tabs and placing bets during activations to cover stand costs. **Caveat:** Collaborative events can get "out of hand" as the day progresses, so plan your activation timing and engagement strategy carefully.
What go-to-market strategies work best for niche spirit categories in the UK on-trade?
Marketing niche spirits to the on-trade is fundamentally different from consumer education—bartenders and bar managers need inspiration and creative freedom, not category explanation. **Strategy & positioning:** - Niche categories are hard to sell through education alone; instead, follow the **Aperol/Campari playbook**: show bartenders *how to drink it* rather than explaining what it is. Let them get inspired by the product itself rather than lengthy category primers. - Provide bartenders with creative guidance (e.g. reference signature cocktails like the Negroni) but allow them the freedom to innovate—this drives both buy-in and on-trade traction. **Sales approach:** - **Sales agencies** (e.g. **Nomad Collection**) can provide existing networks and relationships, though members report they may not deliver on-trade traction despite years of representation. Assess honestly whether agency representation is actually moving the needle. - A dedicated **single sales rep/single brand approach** offers the most focused attention but requires significant patience and budget investment—on-trade wins in London can be loss-making for several years. - Be clear on your objective first: profit, London halo accounts, or volume at any cost? This determines whether agency representation makes sense. **Key insight:** The category education burden is real and draining. Success depends on having a *genuinely easy-to-communicate* product and pairing it with bartenders who are excited to work with it—not convincing them why they should care about the category itself.
What is the most effective go-to-market approach for a newly launched beverage brand targeting high-end on-trade accounts?
For newly launched beverage brands targeting high-end on-trade, face-to-face founder-led selling is significantly more effective than digital outreach alone. **Go-to-market tactics:** - **Founder-led face-to-face sales** — Direct visits from the founder have more persuasive power than emails, calls, LinkedIn, or social media, but require highly targeted account selection to be efficient - **Bottom-up approach** — Build momentum from smaller or mid-tier accounts before approaching tier-one venues; this establishes credentials and case studies for premium on-trade pitches **Key principle:** Be ruthlessly selective about which accounts you target in person; the founder's time is the constraint, not reach. Quality targeting beats volume outreach at this stage.
What are the key success factors for getting spirits stocked in on-trade venues?
Contacts alone won't get you stocked—the product, brand positioning, and pricing must work for the venue first. Members emphasize that relationships are helpful but not sufficient; a strong brand reputation is equally critical. **The three pillars of successful on-trade distribution:** - **Desirable brand** — A genuinely strong product with market appeal. Members note that venues won't push products that don't fit their positioning or are perceived as poor quality, and that having a "black book" of contacts is useless if the brand itself is weak. - **Great contacts** — Established relationships with venue owners and decision-makers are valuable but only when paired with a product worth promoting. Members caution against "stretching the friendship" by pitching unsuitable brands. - **Cash** — Capital to support the placement through visibility, activation, events, and consumer engagement once the product is stocked. **Recommended approach:** - **The "Chicken and Egg" strategy** — Identify multiple opportunities with proven volume commitments, bring them to the supplier/wholesaler, and squeeze from both sides (venues and supplier) until the wholesaler is confident the product won't sit on shelves. Only then should the venue take it on. - **Post-stocking execution** — Once in an account, the hard work begins: drive sales through visibility, activation, events, and consumer engagement. Simply getting stocked is only the start. **Key caution:** Going in cold to the market is extremely difficult. Even an experienced on-trade sales person with existing contacts cannot overcome a weak product or poor brand positioning.
What KPIs should you track to measure a dedicated sales representative's performance for an alcoholic beverage brand?
For a single-brand or small-portfolio sales role in the UK, members emphasise **activity-based metrics** over output alone, particularly because London's on-trade market is highly competitive and education-heavy for niche categories like sake. **Key recommendations:** - **Activity focus** — Track input metrics (calls, visits, conversations) as a leading indicator; members stressed that 'being active seems to be a dying art' and that activity levels expose weaknesses early. This is especially critical for niche categories where category education is time-consuming. - **On-trade listings won** — For London focus, measure secured accounts and placements rather than volume alone; members noted that defining your objective upfront (profit vs. halo accounts vs. volume) changes how you measure success. - **Multi-skilled execution** — KPIs should reflect the rep's ability to handle both pure sales and education; for niche drinks, 'sales skills alone aren't enough—there must be genuine passion and dedication to elevate the entire category.' - **Cost-per-listing benchmark** — Members recommend clarifying upfront how much you're willing to lose per on-trade listing won, as a dedicated single-brand rep is typically a loss-maker for several years before ROI. **Caveats:** Members flagged that niche categories (like sake) require reps with both commercial drive and genuine category passion—pure sales metrics can mask a lack of motivation if the rep isn't passionate about the drink. One member noted they'd used **Nomad Collection** agency for years with 'nice guys' but achieved limited on-trade traction, suggesting that agency vs. dedicated hire choice matters as much as the KPIs themselves.
Can EPR costs be mitigated by obtaining written confirmation from on-trade customers that bottles won't leave the premises?
Members report that some consultancies have identified a potential EPR cost mitigation route: obtaining written confirmation directly from on-trade customers (not wholesalers) stating that bottles will not be removed from the premises where they were sold. Early indications suggest most on-trade customers are willing to sign such letters. However, there are significant caveats: - **DEFRA scrutiny risk** — The regulatory environment is uncertain. DEFRA has already investigated major brands for attempting to exclude the on-trade from waste return schemes to avoid EPR levies, suggesting this approach may face regulatory challenge. - **Interim cost burden** — Wholesalers, retailers and online channels are responding inconsistently to EPR requirements, with some delaying action. Suppliers are currently funding the interim gap, creating six or seven-figure annual impacts depending on sector. - **Collective approach** — Members recommend joining industry collectives (e.g. **CLARITY**) to mount united appeals with DEFRA rather than acting alone, as regulatory interpretation may change. - **Real-world compliance risk** — There are joking but pointed references to enforcement challenges in certain geographies, questioning practical enforceability of such confirmations. This approach remains experimental and unproven at regulatory level. Members advise treating it as one potential lever in a broader EPR strategy rather than a reliable solution, and staying connected to industry groups monitoring DEFRA's stance.
What gross profit margins should drinks brands target when selling through different channels (direct, on-trade, wholesale)?
Typical gross profit margins vary significantly by channel. Brands selling direct (DTC) should target **50–60% gross profit**, while those working through distributors typically see **40–50% gross profit**. **Channel-specific considerations:** - **On-trade (pubs/bars)** — Margins often vary by product within a single listing. Spirit margins may be lower while mixers carry higher margins; the key is ensuring the overall blend works financially. This flexibility can be a useful negotiation tool when pitching new listings, particularly for products that aren't rock-bottom cheap. - **Wholesalers** — Often targeted on average GP across their book rather than individual product margins. Wholesale AMs are typically measured on overall profit vs. turnover, so they may accept lower margins on some products if the basket GP is strong enough. - **Contracted supply** — Route-to-market teams won't sign off prices below a certain margin *unless* they have 100% contracted supply locked in for a fixed period (e.g. multi-year agreements). For larger volumes ("chunky bits of business"), the focus shifts entirely to overall basket GP rather than individual product pricing. **Caveat:** Members emphasised that small per-unit margin gains (e.g. 25p per case, or £0.01 per serve) compound only at significant scale, so don't over-negotiate small margins on high-volume accounts.
What margins and payment terms do on-trade spirits distributors typically expect?
Based on community experience, on-trade distributors supplying spirits to venues typically look for **20–25% margin** on spirits (calculated as profit on return %). This figure comes from direct experience with **Inn Express**, a major UK distributor. Members should expect these margins as a baseline when negotiating distribution agreements for venue supply.
Can I sell directly to venue chains like Drinks Club, or must I work through a distributor?
Venue chains typically prefer to consolidate orders through recommended distributors rather than open direct accounts with multiple small brands, but direct sales are possible if demand is significant enough. **Distribution route:** Members report that **Tortuga Logistics** is Drinks Club's recommended supplier for small and new brands. They consolidate orders to reduce the venue's supplier base, which is a pressure many wholesalers face. However, this doesn't lock you out of direct sales—if you can demonstrate strong demand, venues can be persuaded to buy direct (as some wholesalers do for larger brands). **Key requirement for any route:** Whether you go direct or through a distributor like Tortuga, you still need your own sales person or team to actively sell the product in. The distributor handles logistics consolidation, not the sales effort. **Practical next step:** If a venue specifies a preferred distributor, you can still work with that distributor as your sales channel. Build demand through your own sales activity, and once you've proven volume, renegotiate direct supply if needed.
How should we handle slow or reluctant payment from on-trade venues?
Members emphasize that payment discipline is a principle worth defending, even with smaller accounts. The community's primary recommendation is to **maintain a strict take-and-pay principle** — venues should understand upfront that payment terms are non-negotiable. For venues that do become problematic payers, members suggest **direct communication via DM with other producers** who may have experience with the same account, as this allows sharing of intelligence and coordinated approaches. While the community acknowledged the temptation to publicly name and shame non-payers, the consensus is to handle this judiciously — it's most effective when the venue is of sufficient size that reputational damage would matter to them. For smaller gastro pubs or regional accounts, a more pragmatic approach is to cut them off from future supply rather than investing energy in public disputes. The underlying principle remains: establish clear payment expectations upfront, and enforce them consistently.
What is the most cost-effective sales approach for premium spirits in on-trade versus off-trade channels?
Premium spirits require different sales strategies depending on channel maturity and brand stage. Early-stage brands often struggle to justify dedicated regional sales teams on ROI grounds, especially in on-trade where bar loyalty is weak and listings are short-lived. **On-trade (bars/restaurants):** - **Direct founder-led sales** — Members emphasize that founders win more business than hired salespeople because buyers value founder relationships and product knowledge. Consider hiring ops/finance staff instead so you can spend more time selling yourself. - **Small geographic focus early** — Hit a small area hard, build relationships through repeat visits and personal drinks with bar staff. Hire someone passionate and charismatic rather than an expensive salary hire; listing conversions take time and national accounts demand heavy rebates and listing fees. - **Hybrid distributor + small in-house team** — Partner with a good niche distributor who has existing on-trade networks and represents several high-quality brands. Keep your own payroll small and focus on making your brand the distributor's best performer. This reduces upfront investment while leveraging their relationships. **General considerations:** - **Regional teams struggle on 1-year ROI** — Members who've run regional and national teams note these rarely pay back in year one; they're longer-term investments and require feeding in larger national customers to make the economics work. - **Distributor vs. in-house trade-off** — Distributors reduce outlay and provide a "moment of truth" reality check on where your brand actually sits in the market (versus founder optimism). However, your brand becomes part of a portfolio and won't receive exclusive focus. - **Stage matters** — Early days demand geographic focus and relationship-building; scaling to national accounts requires commercial discipline, bigger salaries, and tolerance of expensive listing fees. **Caution:** Members warned that even strong salespeople struggle to justify ROI when bar margin matters more than loyalty, and that hiring sales teams can expose your brand to harsh trade scrutiny—sometimes revealing the brand isn't at the level founders believe.
What is the optimal split between direct sales and distributor relationships for on-trade and off-trade channels?
Members' actual practices vary significantly by channel. On-trade (bars, restaurants) and off-trade (retail, online) require different approaches: **Channel Split by Type:** - **On-trade:** Mostly via wholesalers/distributors, with limited direct sales - **Off-trade:** Mostly direct, with some distributor relationships **Overall Trade Sales Distribution:** A poll of the community showed the most common approach is mostly via distributors with some direct (23 votes), followed by mostly direct with some via distributors (9 votes). Some members operate all direct (5 votes) or all via distributors (7 votes). Early-stage businesses like Wednesday's Domaine operate at roughly 50/50 between direct and distributor volume. **Key Insight:** The on-trade/off-trade split is the critical distinction—on-trade typically requires distributor relationships for scale and access, while off-trade allows for more direct customer relationships and margin retention.
How have successful liqueur brands built awareness and consumer recall in the market?
St Germain offers a useful case study, though members note it benefited from exceptional advantages not typical of start-ups. The brand's growth strategy and key success factors: **St Germain's approach:** - **Relentless on-trade focus** — concentrated on bars and bartenders for the first 5 years before expanding to retail, building it as a must-stock item in US and UK venues - **Established networks** — the founding family had significant prior experience in import, wholesale and production in the US, plus existing brand-building expertise; this wasn't a start-from-scratch venture - **Bacardi partnership** — once established as a premium on-trade staple, acquisition by Bacardi accelerated growth; Bacardi then bundled it with complementary brands (Grey Goose) and created the "Hugo Spritz" cocktail platform, particularly in Germany, which became a major category driver - **Provenance storytelling** — French elderflower heritage was marketed heavily (though sourced initially from US syrup); Bacardi later invested in authentic sourcing trips to the Alps **Important caveat:** Members emphasise St Germain is *not* a best-case study for bootstrapped start-ups — the founding family's existing RTM infrastructure, brand experience, and capital meant the brand had advantages most founders lack. The Bacardi acquisition came after establishing strong foundations, not as a launchpad. **For design/rebranding support:** Members recommend **Kingdom & Sparrow** and **Analogue in Leeds**.
Which consultants offer drinks development, on-trade serve strategy, and photography support?
Members recommend **Luke Pearson of Pear & Sons** for integrated drinks development, on-trade serve strategy, and photography support for shoots. He previously worked as Northern Brand Ambassador at Seedlip for 3 years before transitioning to full-time consultancy. Members have commissioned him for cocktail development work and report he is "genuinely excellent & reasonably priced." Website: https://www.pearandsons.com/
Which UK spirits distributors work well for exclusive on-trade growth?
Members looking to build exclusive on-trade distribution via a single partner should consider distributors who have proven track records with craft spirits. **Hi-Spirits** is cited as the partner handling Warner's on-trade business (with a few limited exceptions), suggesting they have the scale and on-trade relationships to support exclusive arrangements. When exploring options, members recommend asking for introductions within the community network. **Tudor Rose** has been mentioned as a distributor worth exploring, and members can facilitate introductions and potentially coordinate groupage (combined shipments) if multiple brands are working with the same partner. Key approach: Reach out to established members in the community who have existing distributor relationships—they can often make warm introductions and may be able to coordinate logistics efficiencies through shared distributors.