Ask the Collective
The questions independent drinks founders ask most — answered. Distilled from years of community knowledge so the good stuff never disappears in the feed again.
Where can drinks brands source raw ingredients like pink grapefruit, cachaça, rye whisky under bond, and bulk agave syrup?
The community has shared several specific supplier routes for key ingredients: **Pink grapefruit**: Members flagged interest in sourcing but no specific supplier was named in the discussion; this may require direct outreach to produce wholesalers or citrus distributors. **Cachaça producers supplying direct**: A member posted a direct request seeking cachaça producers who can supply direct, but no specific supplier was named in these excerpts. **Rye profile whisky under bond (~£15 per 70cl)**: - **Organic English rye whisky**: One member has 1800L of organic English rye under bond and was open to selling in quantities around 10 cases; contact james@tomsavano.com for details. - **Bottle & Rye**: Mentioned as a potential source. **Bulk agave syrup at low MOQs**: - **Woods**: Supplies 5-litre jerries; price not specified but members calculated that purchasing 5 jerries was cost-effective for their needs. - Direct member inventory: One member has 275kg of agave syrup and indicated spare stock available via DM. **Note**: The pink grapefruit and cachaça sourcing questions generated interest but no concrete suppliers were named in the community discussion, so members may need to follow up directly or tap the WhatsApp group for introductions.
How should you structure wholesale, retail, bar, and ecommerce pricing when selling through multiple channels?
The key principle is to avoid channel conflict by keeping pricing aligned across wholesalers and retailers, then building your model backwards from RRP. Many large UK wholesalers (Matthew Clark, LWC, Carlsberg, Molson Coors) don't supply retailers, so don't assume a traditional retail-first model. **Pricing structure for spirits (example: £40 RRP):** - £40 RRP / 1.2 = £33.33 exc VAT (your net sell-out price) - Apply 25% retail/wholesaler margin: £33.33 × (1 – 0.25) = £25 Wholesale Selling Price (WSP) - Subtract duty (c.£9 for a 70cl spirit at 40% ABV) = £16 net WSP - Typical gross margin target: 65%, which yields ~£5.60 COGS **Key caveats and variations:** - Gross margins vary by channel: 45% for retailers/wholesalers down to 10% in some cases - **Exclusive distributors** typically require 20–30% gross margin on net sales (can be higher or lower depending on volumes) - Wine, RTD, and beer margins differ significantly from spirits - **Direct-to-bar pricing:** Set this at the wholesaler sell-out price (£33.33 in the example above) to avoid undercutting wholesale customers. Some members set it between wholesale and ecommerce prices. - **Independent retailers:** Price at the same level as direct-to-bars (the wholesaler sell-out price), as they typically order smaller quantities - **One unified price across wholesalers and retailers** is strongly recommended, especially when companies operate multiple channels or face buyouts (Matthew Clark/Booker/Tesco scenarios). Members warned that having different pricing models for different channels creates exposure during consolidation and can be "a world of pain." You can always add retroactive incentives or volume discounts without changing base pricing. **Important warning:** Major acquisitions in distribution (e.g., Bargain Booze buying MCW, Tesco buying Booker) have historically created significant problems for brands with inconsistent pricing across channels.
How should indie drinks brands approach pricing strategy—setting wholesale discounts, communicating retail price increases, and managing annual wholesale price hikes?
Pricing strategy for indie brands involves three main challenges: wholesale discount structures, communicating retail price increases to consumers, and managing annual wholesale price rises. **Wholesale discount structures and RRP enforcement** - Members recommend working backwards from your recommended retail price (RRP ex-VAT) to set wholesale costs. A **20–30% discount** to RRP is typical starting territory, though this varies by retailer and volume. - Online players like **Master of Malt** consistently undercut RRP due to their margin structure; this is a common industry issue. You cannot legally dictate retail prices—only recommend them—so "RRP" is advisory only under UK competition law. - If a wholesaler is damaging your brand perception through heavy discounting, the option is to raise the price you charge *them*, but be prepared that they may drop the listing. Members report this is a negotiation point, not a mandate. - Contact at Master of Malt: **Julie Trewren** (julie.trewren@masterofmalt.com), ex-Matthew Clark buyer, joined by **Lisa Halstead** as her deputy. **Retail price increases and consumer communication** - The way price increases are communicated to consumers is critical. Members suggest adding modest amounts per bottle (e.g., £1) rather than large jumps, and explaining the cost drivers clearly. - One member who had not taken a price increase for 9 years (at Don Papa) found their first increase was too cautious in hindsight. Major brands are more assertive; for small indies, weigh whether a price increase or margin erosion is more painful long-term. **Annual wholesale price increases** - Most wholesalers require price change notifications by early October for January 1st implementation. - General principle: costs rise, prices should rise; holding back builds long-term margin problems. Buyers will always reject increases initially—that's their negotiating role. - You **cannot discuss price increase levels** with competitors (this breaches UK competition law on cartels and price-fixing). Each brand must set increases independently based on their own cost movements. - Recent inflation has stabilised dry goods after double-digit increases; French importers are estimating **5% maximum** price maintenance depending on volume and negotiations. **New product pricing research** - For launching new products, members recommend **Simon at SH Foodie** (simon@shfoodie.com), who conducts tabletop trials with a few hundred units and is described as helpful and collaborative. This has been useful for brands like Bloody Drinks. **Caveats** - Do not discuss specific price increase percentages with other brands—this is illegal under competition law. - Wholesalers operate on different margin structures than traditional retailers; accept that online discounting is difficult to control.
How do you update AWRS registration when your business changes operation (e.g., moving from contract production to own production), and what customer compliance checks are required?
**Updating AWRS registration:** Members report that AWRS changes are managed through the **Government Gateway** login you used when you first set up your AWRS account. Click on AWRS within the Gateway and update your information there. One member noted difficulty finding contact details, but this online process appears to be the standard route. **Customer compliance checks:** The community has settled on a pragmatic two-tier approach: - **For wholesale/trader customers:** Create a "New Trader Form" requiring AWRS registration, VAT number, and company registration details. Use the **Government Gateway AWRS check tool** (https://www.gov.uk/check-alcohol-wholesaler-registration) to verify their registration status. Follow up with a "Compliance sheet" where you record your own verification results: Companies House lookup, Creditsafe check, VAT check, AWRS registration confirmation. Request their accounts payable email and phone number for credit control purposes. - **For retail/on-premises customers (pubs, bars):** Ask for their **Premises Licence** and verify it against the local council register. The standard T&Cs and extensive ID/proof-of-residence forms are not universally applied to one-off retail customers. **What HMRC actually requires:** Members report that HMRC's practical requirement is verification of AWRS status for wholesalers and Premises Licences for retail outlets, supported by documented checks. One member emphasized that maintaining this diligence is "good practice and shows due diligence." **Caveat:** While no member reported being caught out for non-compliance, the tone suggests this is an area where regulatory risk is taken seriously, particularly for wholesale customers.
What are the standard fees for getting a spirits brand listed at major UK retail chains like Matthew Clark and Alchemist, and what negotiation room exists?
Matthew Clark charges **£500 per SKU per depot** for listings. With approximately 11 depots in their network, a full national listing typically costs around £5,000 total per SKU—though members report this can be negotiated down significantly depending on circumstances. **Key negotiation tactics:** - **Commit to all depots at once** — committing to the full national roll-out gives you negotiating leverage to reduce or waive fees entirely - **Emphasise category need** — if you can argue the product is essential for those depots' ranges, you can push for no fee - **Use existing relationships** — members report obtaining listings "for free" when they had national account status or strong brand recognition (one member cited a Marco Pierre White listing that secured 2 SKUs across all depots with no charge) - **Contact** — Guy Dolden (Guy.dolden@hillsprospect.com) at Hills Prospect was mentioned as a useful contact **Caveats:** Fees appear to be climbing and costs can mount quickly, especially when adding stock incrementally (one member noted Alchemist listings "costing us more and more"). The £500-per-depot figure is current as of the discussion but may have shifted since. Negotiation success seems highly dependent on brand strength and whether you're approaching as a new entrant or existing account holder.
What are the major shifts in wholesale distributor performance and market dynamics in the UK drinks trade during 2024?
Members are observing significant volume migrations between distributors, with clear winners and losers emerging across the market. **Key volume gainers:** **Drinks Club**, **Master of Malt Trade**, **Champers**, **Dayla**, **Venus**, **LWC**, and **Amathus** are all winning substantial business from competitors. **Volume losers:** **Specialty**, **MC (Matthew Clark)**, and **Enotria** are experiencing notable customer defections. The primary drivers appear to be: - **Venus (backed by Booker/Tesco)** is being particularly aggressive, especially in the North West, leveraging tiny margins and poaching established staff (including Dave Lomas from Hammonds of Knutsford and Tom Hurst). They are flexing financial muscle from parent company resources and expanding territory by territory. - **LWC** is aggressively targeting MC accounts while maintaining focus on sustainable, quality business. - **Drinks Club** is winning many Enotria accounts. - **MC** has extended ranges for certain groups (e.g. Alchemist), which is hurting Specialty on higher-end lines and affecting the traditional division of business. - **Amathus** in London is growing at pace with aggressive pricing; numerous London accounts switched to them in late 2024. - **Pricing** does not appear to be the primary driver—sell-out prices remain consistent across distributors, so list price differentials are not the main factor. **Caveats:** Personnel changes (key advocates, rep changes) can affect volumes but appear secondary to these broader strategic moves. The shifts are large-scale rather than driven by individual staffing changes. Venus's aggressive expansion may remain concentrated in northern territories and may not immediately impact London/SE businesses.
Should case barcodes be the same as bottle barcodes, or should they be unique?
Case barcodes should be **completely different from bottle barcodes**. Members consistently recommend using unique codes because cases and bottles are different stock-keeping units (SKUs). This becomes critical if you move into wholesale accounts like Booker or Costco that sell full cases alongside individual bottles—using the same barcode could result in customers being charged a bottle price for a full case, creating serious errors in point-of-sale systems. For any barcode queries or registration, members recommend **contacting GS1 directly** for guidance on proper barcode assignment.
What margins do independent pubs and on-trade retailers typically expect when purchasing spirits and drinks?
Independent pubs typically look for **60–75% margin**, with **70–72% gross profit** being the standard expectation. It's important to note that this margin is calculated relative to the per-serve price they sell at, not simply as a percentage of the purchase price (e.g., 10 serves × 6 = 60 vs. the purchase price of 20). Margin expectations vary by channel: - **Independent pubs**: 60–75% margin / 70–72% gross profit - **Wholesalers**: 10–25% depending on product type - **Off-trade**: 25–40% - **Promotional products**: Around 30%, potentially lower if positioned as a footfall driver Members have also asked about specific major retailers (DDC, Majestic) but concrete margin data for those chains was not shared in the discussion. The **Gross Profit app** (iOS) was recommended as a practical tool for calculating margins more easily.
Is Faire an effective platform for drinks brands to reach UK and international retailers?
Members report that Faire presence alone generates minimal organic traction—you must actively drive your own sales through the platform. Faire works best as a commission-based sales channel rather than a passive listing. **Key findings from members' experience:** - **Faire listing** — Several brands (including English Whisky Co and Bloody Bens) are listed but report zero to minimal organic inbound interest; one member got a single sample request from a small US shop despite being on the platform for a couple of years. - **Commission model** — Faire charges commission on sales, which members noted as a trade-off for access to their retailer network. - **Active promotion required** — The only traction members achieved came from their own marketing and relationship-building efforts, not from Faire's organic discovery. Passive listing does not drive sales. - **Platform limitations** — Members question whether Faire has meaningful UK retailer presence, suggesting the platform may skew toward international (especially US) retailers rather than domestic stockists. **Caveats:** The sample size is small and experience is mixed; some brands may have different results depending on category, price point, or active engagement. Faire appears to work best as one channel among many rather than a primary wholesale route.
What are typical MOQ (Minimum Order Quantity) requirements for direct distribution to major UK depots like LWC?
Based on member experience, direct depot MOQs are relatively modest and typically non-negotiable: - **LWC (Lay & Wheeler)** — standard MOQ is 10 cases direct to depot. Members report that attempting to negotiate this upward is difficult and unsuccessful. - **Master of Malt** — requires negotiation directly with the supplier; they typically expect 27–30% margin on trade pricing. Members note that while these minimums are achievable for most brands, trying to push for lower thresholds is unlikely to succeed. The depot model works best if you can meet their baseline requirements consistently.
What should we expect when pitching products to major wholesale distributors, and what strategies work best for getting listings?
Getting wholesale distributor listings requires meeting high volume forecasts and persistence through a lengthy approval process. **Key requirements and expectations:** - Major national operators now demand immediate volume commitment — distributors view stock as cash and are focused on range rationalisation post-COVID - Expect minimum forecast requirements of 3–5 cases per week per SKU or per site, even for smaller initial listings; some high-profile operators have regional autonomy and still push back on these minimums - **Specialty** is known for requesting particularly high forecasts compared to other wholesalers - The approval process is lengthy — members report 2+ weeks of back-and-forth negotiation just to secure a 3-SKU listing - Even with strong credentials (e.g., 15 sites with 5+ cases minimum per week), distributors may still resist listing **Practical tactics:** - Members recommend doing significant leg work yourself rather than relying solely on distributors' internal processes — some have enlisted their accountants to handle sign-off and final calculations - Networking within the community can help: members share useful contacts via direct message - Be prepared for a protracted negotiation; one member noted "that was tough!" and it took considerable effort to eventually secure listings **Caveats:** Members emphasise that distributor relationships are competitive and unpredictable post-COVID. If a relationship sours, rebuilding trust takes time. The landscape remains volatile — members are watching whether R&D claim structure changes will shift wholesale pricing practices.
What pricing structure should producers, wholesalers, and retailers use to ensure adequate margins at each level in the spirits supply chain?
Members shared a community-created pricing model spreadsheet that maps out margin requirements across the supply chain when working backwards from a retail RRP. **Key resource:** The community maintains a shared Google spreadsheet that calculates required COGS, wholesale, and retail price points based on a target RRP and desired margin percentages at each level. This allows producers to determine what manufacturing cost they need to hit to ensure wholesalers and retailers each take their cut. **Important consideration:** The spreadsheet uses markup calculations for wholesale pricing (e.g., dividing by 1.2 to reflect a 20% markup), which differs from the margin calculation method used for retail. Members note this distinction matters—markup and margin are calculated differently. Clarify whether your business model thinks in terms of markup or margin percentage, as this affects how you apply the formula. **Access:** Request the current version from the community (the spreadsheet link is maintained collectively and may be updated). Members are actively refining the model and discussing the mechanics, so asking in the group will get you the latest version with any corrections applied. **Caveats:** The calculations assume standard VAT treatment and work backwards from RRP. The exact margins required may vary by channel (independent retailers vs. multiple retailers), product category, and distribution method, so treat the model as a framework to adapt rather than a fixed rule.
What are realistic sales volumes and ROI for RTD products in major UK grocery retailers like WH Smith?
RTD sales performance in major UK grocery retailers is challenging and heavily dependent on retailer terms. **WH Smith** is one of the most expensive entry points in the market: expect a £20–30k upfront investment in their marketing suite, with listing fees around £500 per store. Return on sales (ROS) is typically 6–8 cans per store per SKU per week in regular stores, though higher in travel locations (train stations, airports). Over a year, this translates to roughly 600 cans per store per SKU annually—a volume that few brands can profitably sustain at standard wholesale margins. Members report that WH Smith's alcohol licence expansion has been slow despite promises (one member noted only 35 of a promised 120 licences materialised). Several members have terminated WH Smith contracts after finding the marketing investment unrecoverable relative to sales. The general consensus is that only established brands with significant scale (e.g., MOTH) can make the unit economics work. **LCB offers EDI integration** if you proceed. Key caveat: one member advised "certainly not rushing back soon" after their WH Smith experience, citing the gap between promised and actual performance.
What are the impacts of Diageo's new wholesale policy requiring 30 designated wholesalers and £2m purchase thresholds for direct supply?
Diageo has implemented restrictive new wholesale rules that significantly reshape how independent retailers and smaller operators can access their products. The policy cuts direct supply access to only 30 approved wholesalers and requires cash-and-carry (C&C) customers to reach £2m in annual purchases (invoice value excluding VAT) to qualify for direct supply. **Key impacts:** - **Around 40 retailers lose direct access** — approximately 40 smaller wholesalers previously supplied directly by Diageo now must purchase Diageo products indirectly, often from their competitors, creating a significant market disruption and widespread upset in the trade. - **High purchase threshold barriers** — The £2m purchase requirement effectively excludes smaller independent retailers and venues from direct supply, forcing them into indirect channels. - **Concentration of power** — The policy limits distribution to only 30 designated wholesalers, reducing competition and potentially increasing margins across the supply chain. **Market observations:** Members noted this creates "a lot of upset in the trade" and flagged potential consequences: some traders are positioning themselves to exploit the disruption, and there's speculation that UK stock availability changes could create arbitrage opportunities at international borders. However, members also recognised potential opportunities emerging from the wholesale space upheaval for new entrants and alternative routes to market. **Note:** The community discussion did not provide a detailed list of the 40 affected wholesalers or the 30 approved ones.
How do you get products into arena accounts and major retail chains through wholesale distributors?
Getting into arena accounts typically requires going through major wholesale distributors. Members' experience: **Matthew Clark (MCW)** — The primary route for many arena accounts; note that Bibendum is part of the C&C group, so MCW listings may be necessary. Be aware that the new listings process is notoriously complex and slow (described as "kafkaesque" by members), and contact points may change frequently. **Majestic** — Members have had success getting replies and pursuing listings directly. **Harrods** — Responsive to direct approaches; one member successfully leveraged a personal connection (former team member who previously worked there) to get a conversation. **Key tactic:** Personal connections and referrals can be valuable—mentioning shared history or mutual contacts may improve your chances of getting through to the right person. **Caveats:** Contacts at major distributors change regularly (one key contact was noted as leaving in January), so expect timelines to shift and relationships to need rebuilding. The process is slow and can feel unresponsive at times.
How do you prepare for and pass the WOWGR (Wholesaler Own Brand Growth Registration) process?
The WOWGR process is lengthy but straightforward to prepare for. Members report the actual assessment takes around 3 hours and doesn't require complicated preparation. **Approach options:** - **DIY preparation** — Members have successfully prepared and passed on their own, though it requires significant time investment - **Phil Griffiths** — Multiple members recommend working with this compliance specialist who helps with due diligence pack preparation. He has experience with WOWGR and can also handle AWRS simultaneously. Described as "amazing" and offering reasonable fees for what members characterize as "a horrible process" **Key takeaway:** While it's possible to go through WOWGR alone, members who used Phil Griffiths as a guide found the process much smoother, particularly if handling multiple compliance requirements at once.
What's the lowest acceptable margin for a craft premium brand when negotiating with a larger distributor, and how should founders secure advertising and promotional support?
Before accepting a lower margin, establish what you're receiving in return. The key tactic members recommend is **conditioning margin reductions on increased A&P investment from the distributor** — rather than simply giving away margin, structure the deal so you maintain control over promotional spend allocation. **Recommended approach:** - Don't accept squeezed margins without concrete commitments. Ask upfront what the distributor will deliver in return (advertising, promotional support, shelf placement investment). - **Convert margin concessions into A&P budgets.** Ensure any margin you reduce is explicitly converted into advertising and promotional spend on the distributor's side. - **Maintain co-investment control.** Rather than letting the distributor pocket extra margin, condition the deal on *you* investing additional A&P from your side while they invest from theirs — this gives you visibility and say over where the investment actually goes. - Be wary of distributors simply using extra margins to milk your brand or redirect spend to other products in their portfolio. Members emphasize that the uneven playing field between small craft brands and big brands (in terms of trade spend, refits, and cash support) makes it essential to negotiate visible, contractual promotional commitments rather than accepting margin reductions in hope of support.
What are the margins and payment terms offered by major drinks distribution partners like CLF and Tree of Life?
Members who work with major drinks distributors report consistently long payment terms but variable margins depending on the retail accounts supplied. **CLF** — Members using CLF report 90-day payment terms. One member noted CLF can be "expensive on the marketing front." Another member found their margins "extremely high" and decided not to proceed, though noted that negotiation on terms may be possible. CLF works well for supplying specific retailers like Planet Organic, where margins are described as "working for now." One member (Punchy) works with CLF and considers them "okay" overall. **Tree of Life** — Limited feedback in community; one member expressed interest but no direct user testimonials were shared. **Payment terms caveat** — 90-day payment terms appear standard across distributors for retail supply routes. Members should factor this into cash flow planning when evaluating distributor partnerships.
Is it worth paying to feature products on wholesaler price lists and printed brochures?
The consensus is that wholesaler brochures deliver poor ROI for most members. Members reported **no measurable uplift in sales** from featuring in printed wholesaler price lists, despite high costs for relatively small ad space. The fundamental issue is relevance—**printed brochures are increasingly ignored** by end users (restaurants, bars), with one member noting they personally threw them straight in the bin. Members also noted that **wholesalers have lost significant customer numbers recently**, reducing the audience reach further. **Cost versus benefit is unattractive**: pricing for brochure placement is expensive relative to the space offered and the actual sales impact. A few members suggested value exists only **if paired with promotional activity or campaigns**, but this remained the minority view. Most members in the discussion found it **not worth pursuing as a standalone tactic**.
What margins do wholesalers and food service distributors typically expect, and how do these vary by product type and channel?
Distributor and wholesaler margins vary significantly by channel and product positioning: **By channel:** - **Wholesalers** typically expect 10–25% depending on product type - **Off-trade** (bottle shops, retail) expect 25–40% - **Premium/super-premium products** sold by the bottle can command higher wholesaler margins, sometimes up to 30%, especially when distributed through specialist merchants like **Amathus**, **Venus**, **Ellis**, and **Hammonds** **Gross profit implications for brands:** - Without a distributor: 50–60% gross profit target - With a distributor: 40–50% gross profit target **Key dynamics members highlighted:** - Wholesalers and RTM teams are typically targeted on average gross profit across their entire book, not individual SKUs—so they'll accept lower margins on some products if the overall basket margin hits target - **On-trade (pubs)**: margins can vary within a single order (e.g., a mixer might carry higher margin while the spirit carries lower), as long as the overall blend works. This can be a useful negotiating angle when pitching new listings - For large contracted business, pricing is negotiated on total GP and multi-year supply agreements, not on a per-unit basis - **Brakes** (and similar major food service distributors): members asked about their specific margin expectations but no concrete answer was provided in this discussion **Caveats:** Members noted that premium/super-premium exceptions exist where margins depend heavily on what you "can get away with." Fighting over per-case margins on commodities (e.g., 25p per case of mixer = £0.01 per serve) is common but often not economically worthwhile.
What are the requirements and process for getting listed with major national wholesalers like Matthew Clark?
Getting listed with national wholesalers, particularly **Matthew Clark**, has a high bar and requires significant groundwork before approaching them. **Matthew Clark listing requirements:** - **Minimum threshold**: You need to have already won business with a large national group (50+ venues minimum) before approaching them for a listing. - **Per-depot listing fees**: Expect to pay approximately £500 per depot per SKU, though this is somewhat negotiable. These fees can be prohibitive depending on how geographically spread your won business is. - **Timeline**: Minimum 6 weeks to set up once approved. - **Fifi Liddar** is the buyer to contact, typically accessed through your distributor rather than directly. - **Key requirement**: You must demonstrate you have already won the business before they'll list you—winning a tender alone is not sufficient. **Alternative route via Master of Malt:** - **Master of Malt (MoM)** operates as an "Extended Range" fulfillment partner for Matthew Clark with a much lower bar to entry. - This route is significantly quicker than direct MC listing and can help you reach MC-dependent venues. - **Note**: MoM is currently reducing their range and being more selective; some operators dislike purchasing through the extended range. - Some product categories face stock rotation issues—if your RoS (rate of sale) is weak, MoM may ask you to reapply later. **Market reality:** - Many retailers and chains will *only* purchase through Matthew Clark and won't buy direct from suppliers, even if you approach them independently. - Direct supply to a few MC venues can be a stepping stone to eventual listing, depending on regional setup (MC operates as a blend with Tennents in some areas). - Members report the process is "a bit of a mare" and the bar remains high even with regional connections.
What wholesale margins should I expect to offer in the soft drinks industry, and how do they vary by customer type?
Soft drinks wholesaler margins typically range from **10% to 30%**, depending heavily on customer size and negotiating power. - **Large group/national customers**: Expect margins as low as **10–15%** on open-book pricing arrangements. These high-volume buyers have significant leverage. - **Independents and smaller retailers**: List price margins can reach **25–30%**, occasionally higher. - **Mid-range/standard wholesale**: **15–25%** is the typical baseline for general wholesale relationships. - **Partnership/deal-based arrangements**: When working collaboratively on specific deals, margins may compress to **10–15%**. The wide range reflects that wholesalers negotiate individually based on volume commitments and customer tier—there is no fixed industry standard. Larger customers with volume leverage consistently achieve lower margins, while smaller independents pay higher wholesale prices.
What platforms and approaches do members use for accessing and bidding on retail and hospitality procurement tenders?
Members actively use dedicated tender platforms to access procurement opportunities from restaurant groups and hospitality venues. The community has direct experience winning accounts through these channels. **Platforms:** - **EzTenda** (www.EzTenda.com) — Members have successfully bid on and won accounts through this platform. It's been used to host significant tender campaigns (e.g. a 700 × 9-litre case spirit tender for a restaurant group), and members report winning new hospitality accounts through the site. **Approach:** Members actively monitor tenders posted on these platforms, bid competitively, and share opportunities with the wider community to alert others to upcoming campaigns.
What are the typical sales volume ratios between Amazon and traditional/speciality wholesale channels?
Amazon consistently outperforms speciality and traditional wholesale (TWE) channels by a significant margin. Members report Amazon generating approximately **4–5 times the sales volume** of combined speciality and traditional wholesale distribution. This pattern appears consistent across multiple businesses in the community. Key observations: - **Amazon vs. Speciality/Traditional Wholesale**: Multiple members confirm a 4:1 to 5:1 ratio of Amazon sales to speciality and traditional wholesale combined - **Commission structures on speciality platforms** (e.g., NOTHS) typically run **25% standard commission**, with promotional campaigns pushing this to **35%** — which members noted can become loss-making despite generating attractive volumes - Members report that negotiating commissions on smaller volumes has limited success
Is it normal for wholesalers to request uplifting of short-dated stock, and whose responsibility is it?
Short-dated stock uplift requests from wholesalers are common, particularly when stock has moved slower than expected. **Legal responsibility**: Once stock is sold to a wholesaler, it is technically theirs—unless you have explicitly agreed Sale or Return (SOR) terms in your contract. If your delivery included reasonable shelf life remaining at the point of sale, you are not obligated to replace it. **Practical approach**: However, members note that wholesalers "don't play so nicely nowadays." Rather than standing on legal ground, the recommendation is to treat this as a relationship issue and focus on collaborative solutions: - **Set shelf-life minimums upfront** — Specify required minimum shelf life (e.g. 6 months) in your purchase orders and terms to avoid disputes later - **Lead the solution, don't fight it** — Work with the wholesaler to move through slow-moving stock rather than enforce uplift refusals, to protect the long-term relationship - **Build demand on your side** — Wholesalers are service providers and will not create customer demand for you. Implement robust demand-generation plans to prevent slow movement in the first place **Key warning**: If you accept uplifts without agreement, you risk "double COGS with the same revenue"—a direct loss. Members emphasize: the real issue is usually slow stock movement, not the wholesaler's legal obligation. Preventing the problem through demand planning and clear terms is better than negotiating your way out of it later.
What is Harrods' process and timeline for submitting products for their hamper range?
Harrods manages hamper submissions through their Spirits Buyer (Nick Fleming) and Wine Buyer (Siobhan Irons), who review submissions around **end of January through early March at the latest**. Key details for successful submissions: - **Volume potential**: Hamper orders range from 1,500–6,000 units, making this worthwhile distribution - **Price sweet spot**: Products under £15 are most likely to be selected for the major Christmas hampers. Anything retailing under £100 is noted as not moving the dial in standard retail - **Margin requirements**: Both buyers operate on GP targets of 38–42%, so submissions must support those margins - **Category focus**: The spirits and wine categories that dominate hamper sales are whisky (especially premium/value-driven selections), Bordeaux, Burgundy, Champagne, Brandy, and USA wines. Italian wines, Baiju, and rum follow at lower volumes - **Buyer preferences**: Nick Fleming (Spirits) prioritizes good value and dismisses high-street/commercial offerings; Siobhan Irons (Wine) keeps an open mind but focuses on products that drive turnover - **Additional context**: Both buyers also support 26 in-house restaurant offerings within Harrods, so submissions should align with those channels Members advise submitting well in advance of the January–March review window to ensure consideration.
What are typical listing fees charged by major UK drinks wholesalers and retailers, and how negotiable are they?
Based on member experience, listing fees from major wholesalers operate on a per-depot model rather than per-SKU basis. **Confirmed pricing:** - **Matthew Clark** — charges a flat rate of £500 per depot. With their 10-depot network, this totals £5,000 for full listing across all locations. **Negotiability:** Members have raised questions about whether fees are fair and negotiable, but the excerpts do not contain specific guidance on negotiation tactics, volume discounts, or flexibility on these charges. One member was checking whether their Matthew Clark fees were competitive. **Caveats:** This data point is limited to one major wholesaler. Pricing structures may vary significantly between different wholesalers and retailers (e.g. Sainsburys direct listings may operate differently from wholesaler listings). Members seeking to negotiate should benchmark against peers in their category and region.
Which UK wholesalers and distributors own their own branded spirit products?
Multiple major UK distributors have vertically integrated by acquiring or owning their own spirit brands. Members identified the following: - **LWC** — owns Old J - **Proof** — owns Caz and Cut Rum - **C&C** — owns MCW and several other brands - **GHF** — owns Coates and Sealy - **Paragon** — part-owned by Maison Villevert, which has its own branded products - **Ten Locks** — owns Pod Vodka Members confirmed that vertical integration into owned brands is a common strategy among major distributors, though when asked whether this is an accelerating trend, the response was non-committal ("You'll have to ask them!"), suggesting the trend's pace may require direct inquiry with distributors themselves.
What are the requirements and process for getting listed at major wine and spirits distributors like Amathus?
Getting listed at major spirits distributors requires preparation and investment. Start by building a track record of retail accounts before approaching distributors, as they are more likely to engage if you can demonstrate existing sales momentum. **Key considerations:** - **Amathus Drinks** — A major distributor contact is Rob Gray (rob@amathusdrinks.com). However, they won't engage seriously unless you already have several retail accounts; they then connect you with their sales reps. - **Listing fees and free stock** — Be prepared to pay listing fees and provide free stock for their retail locations as part of the onboarding cost. **Takeaway:** Approach distributors after you've already secured direct-to-retail relationships, rather than as your first distribution route. The distributor will then leverage their network to place your product across their chain.
What are the typical listing fees charged by major spirits wholesalers like Matthew Clarke, and are they negotiable?
Listing fees with major wholesalers such as Matthew Clarke are typically charged on a per-depot basis as a one-off charge (not annual), though this can be negotiated. **Pricing structure:** - **Matthew Clarke**: Members report £500 per depot as the standard rate. With 7–10 depots, expect £3,500–£5,000 total per SKU, though some members have negotiated different rates. **Important caveats:** - Listing fees are **negotiable** — members have successfully haggled rates down, so don't accept the first quote. - Beware of "listing without distribution": Matthew Clarke may accept your product but not make it widely available across depots, meaning you pay the fee but only your direct customer can actually order it. This defeats the purpose of wholesale listing. - **Alternative route**: Consider **Master of Malt** for Matthew Clarke's extended range if volumes are reasonable — this may avoid or reduce listing fees. Members recommend getting words of wisdom from experienced founders before committing, as fee structures and availability guarantees vary significantly by negotiation and product type.
How do wholesale distributors handle larger format spirits, and which ones accept bulk formats directly?
Specialty wholesalers are increasingly accepting larger formats directly from producers, making a stronger case for direct-to-account sales given the cost savings and volume. Members report using **25L drums with screw-top lids and tamper seals** as a standard bulk format. When repackaging is needed for retail presentation, **BiBs (bag-in-box)** are preferred over plastic jerry cans for both aesthetic and shelf-life reasons. Members have noted that **tap badges** (featured work by ELLC) can improve the visual presentation of jerry cans if that format is preferred. The key consideration: if your product has a shelf-life sensitivity, BiBs are the better option for wholesale distribution.
Which wholesalers supply major restaurant groups like JKS Restaurants, and what is their buying structure?
For restaurant groups like JKS Restaurants, members identified several key wholesalers that supply them: - **Venus** — listed as a supplier to major restaurant groups - **Amathus** — supplies restaurant groups; noted as a wholesaler option - **Enotria** — supplies restaurant groups - **Speciality** — believed to supply restaurant groups Members noted that some restaurant groups with multiple brands (like JKS) can bypass wholesalers and buy direct through a central purchasing unit, which may offer better pricing and terms. The discussion suggests checking whether target accounts have centralised buying across all their brands or split buyers per concept, as this affects approach and negotiation structure.
Who are the key buying contacts at major UK wine and spirits wholesalers like Bibendum, and how do members approach getting stocked?
Getting spirits stocked in major wholesalers requires identifying the right buying contact. Members report that **Bibendum**'s spirits buying falls under **Matt Clark Beverages (MCB)**, where the key contact is **Romain**. Members recommend reaching out directly to these contacts and note that having clear performance data (like break-even analysis or media coverage) can strengthen pitches. One member reported having "really good results with a few brands" through this approach and offered to share their experience directly. The process appears to involve direct outreach to category buyers rather than formal submission portals.
What fulfilment and logistics providers do members recommend for D2C and wholesale shipping?
Members have moved away from providers who mishandle packaging and labels. **Globe-Drop** is currently recommended as a reliable alternative—a logistics and fulfilment company managing both D2C and urgent wholesale shipments from their London facility, with additional hubs in Amsterdam, Dubai, and New York. They're praised for moving fast, offering fully bespoke customer experience (including personalised messaging and packaging as per client requests), and competitive rates. Members can request introductions through the community if interested. Caveat: **WAF** was flagged as problematic for scuffing labels and not respecting provided packaging specifications—members actively moving away from them.
What gross profit margins should drinks brands target when selling through different channels (direct, on-trade, wholesale)?
Typical gross profit margins vary significantly by channel. Brands selling direct (DTC) should target **50–60% gross profit**, while those working through distributors typically see **40–50% gross profit**. **Channel-specific considerations:** - **On-trade (pubs/bars)** — Margins often vary by product within a single listing. Spirit margins may be lower while mixers carry higher margins; the key is ensuring the overall blend works financially. This flexibility can be a useful negotiation tool when pitching new listings, particularly for products that aren't rock-bottom cheap. - **Wholesalers** — Often targeted on average GP across their book rather than individual product margins. Wholesale AMs are typically measured on overall profit vs. turnover, so they may accept lower margins on some products if the basket GP is strong enough. - **Contracted supply** — Route-to-market teams won't sign off prices below a certain margin *unless* they have 100% contracted supply locked in for a fixed period (e.g. multi-year agreements). For larger volumes ("chunky bits of business"), the focus shifts entirely to overall basket GP rather than individual product pricing. **Caveat:** Members emphasised that small per-unit margin gains (e.g. 25p per case, or £0.01 per serve) compound only at significant scale, so don't over-negotiate small margins on high-volume accounts.
What invoice financing providers are recommended for managing cash flow with large wholesale orders?
Members who've tackled cash-flow challenges with large wholesale orders have used dedicated invoice financing providers to unlock capital tied up in receivables. - **Close Brothers** — used successfully by members to improve cash flow and manage credit control. Their credit control function was noted as particularly helpful for dealing with slow-paying customers.
How should freight and logistics costs be charged to UK wholesalers—built into the price or as a separate line item?
Members build logistics costs into their overall price structure rather than treating them as wholly separate. The typical approach is: - **Integrated pricing**: Incorporate transport and logistics into your price trees so wholesalers see a single, clean unit price. - **MOQ threshold**: Charge shipping as an additional line item only for orders below your minimum order quantity (MOQ). Once a wholesaler hits the MOQ, logistics is absorbed into the negotiated price. This approach simplifies invoicing for regular, larger orders while protecting margin on smaller or trial orders.
What margin do specialty retailers typically expect on a 750ml bottle priced at £15?
Standard retail margin expectations for a £15 750ml bottle sit at **15–25%**, according to members with direct experience in specialty retail placement.
How should brands set minimum order quantities (MOQs) when selling to wholesalers?
MOQs should be structured to work commercially for both the brand and the wholesaler. Set a threshold below which orders become unprofitable for you—if a wholesaler orders just two cases, your margin gets squeezed rapidly. **Pricing strategy with MOQ tiers:** - Set a baseline MOQ (e.g. pallet or half-pallet quantities) that makes financial sense - For orders below the MOQ, charge an additional fee to cover your costs and reduced margin - This approach protects profitability while still allowing smaller orders when the customer pays a premium **Delivery considerations:** - Delivered pricing is standard, though some regional or friendly wholesalers may occasionally collect stock themselves (rare bonus) **Key caveat:** Members stressed that MOQs must balance your commercial needs against wholesaler requirements—set them too high and you lose sales; too low and you erode margins on small orders.
Which major UK distributors are currently accepting new spirits product listings?
Based on recent community experience, distributor availability is highly selective and changes frequently. **Current status:** - **MMI** — Not currently accepting new listings (as of the discussion date) **Alternative route:** Members have successfully placed products directly with premium retailers rather than relying on traditional distributor networks. One member secured a month-long exclusive listing with **Harvey Nichols** for their spirits product, which provided a direct-to-retail route without going through a distributor middleman. **Caveat:** The community notes that distributor capacity is limited and gates are often closed. Direct retailer relationships may be more productive than pursuing distributors at present. Members should expect rejections and should consider approaching premium independent retailers and department stores as an alternative to traditional wholesale distribution channels.
How should I handle a wholesaler's request to replace slow-moving stock?
The community's consensus is to treat slow-moving stock as a relationship risk and to proactively solve it together with the wholesaler rather than defensively negotiate replacements. **Key approach:** - **Focus on demand generation** — Remember that wholesalers are service providers and won't build customer demand for you. The onus is on you to stimulate end-customer demand to move stock through the channel. - **Lead the solution collaboratively** — Rather than waiting for replacement demands or shifting responsibility, take the initiative to work with the wholesaler on sell-through strategies. This protects the long-term relationship and demonstrates partnership. - **Proactive planning** — Put robust demand-stimulation plans in place before slow-moving stock becomes a problem in the first place. **Caveat:** Slow-moving stock damages both parties and is a sign that the underlying distribution/demand strategy needs review. Members emphasized this is fundamentally a demand problem, not a stock-return problem.
Which European wholesalers supply hospitality groups in key markets, and how do members access wholesale opportunities?
Members are actively tracking wholesale supply chains for major hospitality groups across Europe. The specific wholesalers serving chains like Soho House in France, Italy, Netherlands, Spain and Greece are a point of discussion, though details are sparse in current threads. **Key platforms and contacts:** - **EzTenda** — A tender platform where restaurant groups (including JKS Restaurants) post spirit purchasing opportunities. Members recommend joining; the platform sends regular newsletters with live tender links, making it a useful channel for wholesale access across multiple European markets. - **LWC (Local Wine Company)** — Has dedicated regional reps, including coverage for SW London; members seek direct rep contact numbers for account management. **Practical approach:** Members are using dedicated tender platforms to identify hospitality group opportunities rather than relying on traditional wholesaler relationships alone. This suggests a shift toward direct-to-group tendering as a route into key accounts. **Caveat:** The discussion doesn't provide a comprehensive list of named wholesalers by country. For specific market entry in France, Italy, Netherlands, Spain and Greece, members appear to still be researching, so this may require direct enquiry or networking within the collective.
What margin and rebate structure should we expect when selling through DDC for contract catering accounts?
Members report that DDC contract catering deals typically involve a **45% wholesale margin** before reaching the end customer. This breaks down as **25% to DDC** plus **20% for their rebate agreement**. One member was recently quoted at these levels, so this appears to be current market pricing. Ensure you clarify the split between their direct margin and rebate obligations upfront, as the combined impact significantly affects your profitability on these accounts.
Where can I sell excess or clearance inventory at cost to clear stock?
Members recommend reaching out to specialist wholesalers who purchase overstock and near-expiry products. **Heley International** (contact: NickL@heley-int.com) was specifically mentioned as a buyer of clearance and close-to-expiry stock at low cost. When approaching wholesalers, be prepared to specify what you're clearing and at what price point. Note: members also flagged that **Speciality** has had sporadic payment delays, so it's worth checking payment terms and track record before committing to a deal.