Ask the Collective
The questions independent drinks founders ask most — answered. Distilled from years of community knowledge so the good stuff never disappears in the feed again.
Which trade shows and food/drink expos deliver the best ROI for spirits and premium drinks brands?
Members' experience with major consumer shows is mixed and heavily dependent on brand positioning and price point. BBC Good Food Show attracts a broad demographic that skews toward lower price-point, sweeter products rather than premium spirits—one member reported getting repeatedly asked if lemonade could be added to their product. Volumes can be decent (one wine importer reported £22K sales in Birmingham), but pitch fees are described as "eye watering" and ROI is often poor for premium brands. Pimentae found decent volumes but the wrong customer demographic; Shanky's Whip moved 900 bottles at £25 each (on promotion at £20), though this required heavy discounting. Members recommend premium spirit producers "stay well clear" due to oversaturation of spirits brands making it hard to stand out. The Atom food and beverage conference (held at Doncaster Racecourse) attracts good numbers of retail buyers but delivery is inconsistent—one attendee found it well-run with solid contacts, while another reported poor organisation and significant buyer no-shows. Members suggest evaluating any show based on whether the attending buyer demographic aligns with your brand's retail price positioning and target market, rather than assuming volume = success.
Who are the key buyer contacts at major UK retail chains, and how do I reach them?
Members have shared specific contacts for several major retailers. At Master of Malt, Chris Wood (Chris.Wood@masterofmalt.com) handles spirits listings. At Ocado, Catherine Street is the spirits buyer and Georgiana Cazan handles soft drinks; members note LinkedIn is a useful source to identify current buyers and determine email formats. At Waitrose, JV (initials only in discussion) handles RTD and spirits categories. At Wholefoods, Alice Fishman was previously listed as spirits and soft drinks buyer, though members report significant difficulty reaching her despite multiple outreach attempts. Members emphasise that buyer contacts frequently change roles and many are difficult to reach via email; using LinkedIn to identify current staff and following up with direct contact attempts is the typical approach. The community advises that persistence may be needed but notes frustration with unresponsive buyers.
What are the key regulatory, structural and practical challenges when launching spirits into the US market, and how should brands approach state-by-state expansion?
The US spirits market operates as a 50-state regulatory maze with no direct-to-consumer sales permitted. Members emphasize treating each state as a separate country—expansion is slow, expensive, and requires strategic selectivity rather than pursuing all states immediately. **Market structure and regulatory framework:** - The US operates a mandatory three-tier system: supplier/importer → distributor → retailer. Direct sales to consumers are not permitted in most states. - No single US-wide license exists; each state has its own regulatory requirements and approval process. **Market entry routes:** - **Working with an importer** — Several members use importers who then represent the brand to distributors across multiple states. This adds a middleman but significantly reduces complexity compared to managing 50 separate relationships directly. - **Distributor relationships** — Members are actively seeking direct relationships with US distributors to understand state-specific requirements and market conditions. **Expansion strategy:** - **Selective state focus is more effective than rapid 50-state expansion** — Members report that concentrating on 5–9 strategically chosen states yields better results than attempting to launch everywhere simultaneously. One member noted that brandy sales patterns vary dramatically by state (e.g., performing differently in Hawaii vs. Wisconsin), so product fit matters. - **Timeline expectations** — One brand took 3 years to establish a presence in just 2 states before accelerating to 17 states in one year and tracking toward 50 by year-end. Another notes the process "takes time and money" and involves "painful learnings." - **Cost** — Members have invested significant capital over multiple years ("stupid money" was mentioned), so budgeting for a multi-year, expensive rollout is essential. **Caveats:** - There is no one-size-fits-all approach; the right number of states to launch in depends on the specific product, brand positioning, and available budget. Focus and depth in fewer states may outperform shallow distribution across many.
How should you structure wholesale, retail, bar, and ecommerce pricing when selling through multiple channels?
The key principle is to avoid channel conflict by keeping pricing aligned across wholesalers and retailers, then building your model backwards from RRP. Many large UK wholesalers (Matthew Clark, LWC, Carlsberg, Molson Coors) don't supply retailers, so don't assume a traditional retail-first model. **Pricing structure for spirits (example: £40 RRP):** - £40 RRP / 1.2 = £33.33 exc VAT (your net sell-out price) - Apply 25% retail/wholesaler margin: £33.33 × (1 – 0.25) = £25 Wholesale Selling Price (WSP) - Subtract duty (c.£9 for a 70cl spirit at 40% ABV) = £16 net WSP - Typical gross margin target: 65%, which yields ~£5.60 COGS **Key caveats and variations:** - Gross margins vary by channel: 45% for retailers/wholesalers down to 10% in some cases - **Exclusive distributors** typically require 20–30% gross margin on net sales (can be higher or lower depending on volumes) - Wine, RTD, and beer margins differ significantly from spirits - **Direct-to-bar pricing:** Set this at the wholesaler sell-out price (£33.33 in the example above) to avoid undercutting wholesale customers. Some members set it between wholesale and ecommerce prices. - **Independent retailers:** Price at the same level as direct-to-bars (the wholesaler sell-out price), as they typically order smaller quantities - **One unified price across wholesalers and retailers** is strongly recommended, especially when companies operate multiple channels or face buyouts (Matthew Clark/Booker/Tesco scenarios). Members warned that having different pricing models for different channels creates exposure during consolidation and can be "a world of pain." You can always add retroactive incentives or volume discounts without changing base pricing. **Important warning:** Major acquisitions in distribution (e.g., Bargain Booze buying MCW, Tesco buying Booker) have historically created significant problems for brands with inconsistent pricing across channels.
How can drinks brands get listed on Amazon without their own premises license?
Getting on Amazon without a personal premises license is difficult but members have found a few workarounds—though none are straightforward. **Key approaches members have used:** - **Get a premises license in your own name** — One member resolved Amazon's rejection of their LCB storage license by applying for a premises license at their flat in their personal name rather than their Ltd Co, and Amazon eventually accepted it. They noted this required convincing the local council (in their case Lambeth) of the business case. - **Use a fulfilment/agency partner** — Members recommend **Rosetta Brands**, which handles Amazon compliance and fulfillment for brands; they offer tiered packages depending on SKU count and marketing spend. At least one member hired an agency to handle the Amazon application but they gave up after 2 months. Other members mention working with agencies but note it's "pay to play" and have shelved the idea as a result. Some members have been offered introductions to other "great" fulfilment companies via direct message that can handle this, though details remain confidential within the group. - **Try persistence and escalation** — One member reported success by resubmitting their application entirely in capital letters and getting approved; another noted that back in 2020, repeated escalation requests to a manager eventually worked. **Important caveats:** - Amazon's acceptance criteria are opaque and inconsistent. Multiple members have had applications rejected despite having valid premises and personal licenses in the correct name, and Amazon has refused to explain why. - Amazon's support is largely automated; you need to be doing £250k+ annually before a human account manager will engage with you. - Several members report their account managers have stopped responding to emails and describe the whole process as "frustrating" and "impossible to speak to anyone." - Even with premises licenses, some members' applications were rejected without clear explanation.
Should drinks brands switch from Amazon Seller to Amazon Vendor account?
The community is mixed on this switch, with several reporting regrets. Here's what members shared: **Key differences:** - **Vendor account** — Amazon owns stock, allows unlimited inventory holding, and grants access to major promotional events (Deals of the Day, Prime Day, Black Friday) in larger quantities than Seller accounts offer via Lightning Deals - **Seller account** — you retain control of inventory and pricing **Margin and fees:** - Vendor accounts involve steep take-rates (members mentioned 30% margin + 14% rebate as a typical example), though members noted Amazon fees can "usually be haggled down" - Some members suggested trying to negotiate margin terms with Amazon **Member feedback:** - Several reported having heard "quite a few examples" of people who moved from Seller to Vendor and regretted it - One member noted "not sure I've ever heard A" (positive experiences) - One member noted they've heard of people moving *from* Vendor back *to* Seller - The consensus leans cautious; most active respondents indicated they haven't made the switch (option C) **Caveats:** - Territory matters—different regions have different considerations - The benefit of promotional access must be weighed against margin loss and loss of direct inventory control
What are the realistic pros and cons of selling spirits and beverages on Amazon?
Amazon makes your brand available to a huge customer base and can offer cheaper shipping than managing your own 3PL, but profitability is challenging and requires significant sustained spend on advertising and promotions. Members have learned hard lessons about the platform's dynamics. **Pros:** - **Wide reach** — puts your brand in front of millions of potential customers automatically - **Shipping economics** — can be cheaper than managing your own third-party logistics for individual orders - **Organic traffic from external brand-building** — members report that investing in consumer awareness outside Amazon (direct marketing, PR, social) drives profitable organic sales *on* Amazon without needing to throw cash at Amazon's own ad platform **Cons:** - **High advertising costs required** — you must spend heavily on Amazon's promotional tools and media to achieve meaningful volume; members report struggling to make Amazon profitable even with ad investment - **Amazon holds all the cards** — the platform controls pricing, visibility, fees, and policies in ways that can surprise you after launch; members describe "some you didn't know existed before you started" - **Very tricky unit economics** — multiple members noted they've never been able to make Amazon profitable and have actually pulled advertising spend entirely - **Brand values misalignment** — Amazon's working practices can clash with independent drinks brands' values **Key strategy:** The one member reporting strong Amazon profitability said their biggest win was **building direct consumer brand awareness away from the platform**, which then organically drove profitable sales on Amazon without relying on Amazon's own ads. This approach also builds a direct customer relationship outside the platform. Members emphasise that Amazon is a big customer for many (hard to ignore) but universally describe it as tricky to make work profitably. Several have formed a discussion group to share learnings and mistakes to avoid.
What are the contact details for buying teams at major UK retailers, food halls, and pub chains?
Members have shared specific buying contacts for several major retailers and venues. Here's what the community has on file: **Retailers & Food Halls:** - **Diverse Fine Food** — Mark (mark@diversefinefood.co.uk) and Nicki (Nicki@diversefinefood.co.uk), both Directors - **Planet Organic** — Issy Turney (issy@planetorganic.com) for RTD/spirits - **Wholefoods** — Alice Fishman (Alice.Fishman@wholefoods.com) for RTD/spirits - **John Lewis Food Halls** — Uses the same buying structure as Waitrose for each category; GBExchange / Fells handle alcohol route to market to JLP - **Waitrose** — John Vine is the buyer; Lucille Kavanagh runs special event style launches and may be relevant for compelling stories - **Partridges** — Carlo is the drinks buyer (wines@partridges.co.uk or wine@partridges.co.uk); note that Partridges stock through HT Drinks and Enotria, and Carlo prefers in-person visits over email. He's often in store. **Pub Chains:** - **Urban Pubs and Bars** — Adam Donnelly (adam.donnelly@urbanpubsandbars.com) for spirits range decisions **Clearance/Closeout:** - **Heley International** — Nick L (NickL@heley-int.com) buys close-to-expiry or clearance stock **Important caveat:** Members noted that some buyers (notably Partridges' Carlo) do not respond to email and require in-person contact; visiting in store is the recommended approach. SSP and WHSmith contact details were requested but not provided in the community discussion.
What are the standard fees for getting a spirits brand listed at major UK retail chains like Matthew Clark and Alchemist, and what negotiation room exists?
Matthew Clark charges **£500 per SKU per depot** for listings. With approximately 11 depots in their network, a full national listing typically costs around £5,000 total per SKU—though members report this can be negotiated down significantly depending on circumstances. **Key negotiation tactics:** - **Commit to all depots at once** — committing to the full national roll-out gives you negotiating leverage to reduce or waive fees entirely - **Emphasise category need** — if you can argue the product is essential for those depots' ranges, you can push for no fee - **Use existing relationships** — members report obtaining listings "for free" when they had national account status or strong brand recognition (one member cited a Marco Pierre White listing that secured 2 SKUs across all depots with no charge) - **Contact** — Guy Dolden (Guy.dolden@hillsprospect.com) at Hills Prospect was mentioned as a useful contact **Caveats:** Fees appear to be climbing and costs can mount quickly, especially when adding stock incrementally (one member noted Alchemist listings "costing us more and more"). The £500-per-depot figure is current as of the discussion but may have shifted since. Negotiation success seems highly dependent on brand strength and whether you're approaching as a new entrant or existing account holder.
What is the best approach and contacts for launching a drinks brand in the US market?
Entering the US requires significant resources, strategic planning, and local expertise. Members emphasize that the US operates like multiple separate markets (each state has its own regulations and distribution channels), so focus and preparation are critical. **Key Strategic Approaches:** - **Focus geographically** — concentrate on one or two regions and go deep rather than attempting a national launch. Members with successful US operations stress this approach over broad expansion. - **Budget conservatively** — expect your launch costs to be 3–10x your worst-case scenario estimate. The US market is substantially more expensive than UK operations. - **Use a brand ambassador model** — hire a single brand ambassador across multiple brands to manage costs, as US hiring is expensive. - **Work with an existing distributor** — one member has contacts currently seeking agency brands to distribute across 5 key states with an established sales organization in place; DM for discussion. **Key Contacts and Resources:** - **Taylor Foxman** — runs a consultancy focused on US market entry and is very well connected (ex-ZS). Also manages a Slack channel (though reportedly not very active). - **Spirited Marketing** — runs the Spirited Incubator Programme with partners in Chicago and NYC; happy to discuss partnership approaches. - **Richard Davies** — mentioned as having experience with whiskey launch in Florida and offering routes to market. - **Tequila Enemigo founder** — member of the community with acquired US operations (head offices in NY/LA) and willingness to share experiences; happy to discuss approaches and lessons learned. - **Spirits Society group** — informal group within Kindreds connecting US brands and members with US experience. - Consider joining or creating a dedicated Kindreds US-focused WhatsApp/Slack channel — demand exists and several members volunteered to help establish one. **Important Caveats:** - "There is no magic bullet" — each state operates with different regulations and complications. - The US market requires a fundamentally different approach than European expansion; it is "a whole different beast" best approached with caution. - Members recommend speaking directly with those who have navigated US entry before attempting launch.
What is a reasonable budget for Shopify website development?
A £10k quote for Shopify development is considered high by the community. Typical costs depend heavily on complexity and whether you're using an existing theme vs. bespoke coding. **Pricing benchmarks:** - **Theme-based builds (no custom coding):** £1,500–£3,000. Members report paying around this range when a designer provides the design and a developer simply implements it on a Shopify theme. - **Hourly rates:** £30–£50/hour is typical. One member suggests calculating whether the quoted hours are realistic—a £10k quote at £50/hour implies 200 hours of work; consider whether that's justified for a theme build. - **Negotiation expected:** One member received a £10k quote that dropped to £6k within an hour of feedback, suggesting initial quotes are often inflated and should be challenged. - **Bespoke/custom coding:** Half the theme price or slightly more, depending on complexity. **Recommended developers:** - **Simon (Simongreenbox@gmail.com):** South African-based developer who has worked for multiple members. Charged £1,500 for a full build five years ago; now around £50/hour. - **Valley Gal (Sarah at valleygal.co.uk):** Email marketing and e-commerce optimization specialist; members recommend checking they provide a fully editable site and clarity on ongoing support needs. **Key considerations:** - Ensure the final build is fully editable by you and doesn't lock you into ongoing development costs unless necessary. - If e-commerce is a core revenue channel, budget for continuous improvement and conversion-rate work (one member invests ~£2,000/month on this). - Get multiple quotes and don't accept the first price.
Who are the key retail buyers and contacts to target for UK drinks listings, and how responsive are they?
Finding and contacting major UK retail buyers is challenging—many are notoriously unresponsive to outreach. Members have identified several buyers worth targeting, though persistence and alternative contact methods may be needed. **Key contacts members have named:** - **Dawn Davies** — Whisky Exchange / Specialty Drinks - **Nick Bell** — Harvey Nichols - **Nick Flemming** — Harrods - **John Vine** — Waitrose - **Chris Appleby** — Enoteca (reported as good to deal with) - **Alice Fishman** — Previously assistant buyer at Wholefoods (though members report she is unresponsive) **Caveats and warnings:** - Many major retail buyers are "literally uncontactable" and do not respond to email outreach (members reported sending multiple emails with no reply). - Waitrose and Wholefoods buyers in particular have been flagged as difficult to reach; one member joked about extreme persistence tactics. - The group expressed frustration that some buyers operate as if "they wouldn't survive in the brutal world of entrepreneurship." - Chris Appleby at Enoteca is one of the few explicitly noted as responsive and good to deal with, suggesting he may be an easier entry point. Members did not provide specific listing requirements, onboarding processes, or minimum order thresholds in the excerpts.
What are the major shifts in wholesale distributor performance and market dynamics in the UK drinks trade during 2024?
Members are observing significant volume migrations between distributors, with clear winners and losers emerging across the market. **Key volume gainers:** **Drinks Club**, **Master of Malt Trade**, **Champers**, **Dayla**, **Venus**, **LWC**, and **Amathus** are all winning substantial business from competitors. **Volume losers:** **Specialty**, **MC (Matthew Clark)**, and **Enotria** are experiencing notable customer defections. The primary drivers appear to be: - **Venus (backed by Booker/Tesco)** is being particularly aggressive, especially in the North West, leveraging tiny margins and poaching established staff (including Dave Lomas from Hammonds of Knutsford and Tom Hurst). They are flexing financial muscle from parent company resources and expanding territory by territory. - **LWC** is aggressively targeting MC accounts while maintaining focus on sustainable, quality business. - **Drinks Club** is winning many Enotria accounts. - **MC** has extended ranges for certain groups (e.g. Alchemist), which is hurting Specialty on higher-end lines and affecting the traditional division of business. - **Amathus** in London is growing at pace with aggressive pricing; numerous London accounts switched to them in late 2024. - **Pricing** does not appear to be the primary driver—sell-out prices remain consistent across distributors, so list price differentials are not the main factor. **Caveats:** Personnel changes (key advocates, rep changes) can affect volumes but appear secondary to these broader strategic moves. The shifts are large-scale rather than driven by individual staffing changes. Venus's aggressive expansion may remain concentrated in northern territories and may not immediately impact London/SE businesses.
How do we get our spirits stocked in major UK retailers and distribution platforms?
Members report that pitching to major retailers requires identifying the right buyer contact and understanding their submission windows. For **Specialty Drinks** (spirits distributor), members recommend contacting **Dawn Davies** (dawn@specialitydrinks.com), the Spirits buyer. For **Spirit Kiosk** / **Spirits Beacon** (run by Enotria's digital team since 2020), reach out to **Andrew Trafford** or **Emily Collins** on the buying team; note that the platform's marketing contact is **Richard Weaver** or **Lauren Burfield**. For **Whole Foods UK**, be aware their submission schedule is complex with multiple internal and external deadlines; one member reported they are not running a full range review in the current year, only planning Jan-to-Jan. Members also mention **Nectar** (the loyalty programme) as a listing opportunity, where key accounts include **Cirrus Inns** and **Fullers pubs** (though Cirrus is now under Liberation, requiring direct supply). General advice: identify decision-makers early, understand each retailer's calendar windows, and use the community network to secure warm introductions. One member offered to discuss their recent Tesco pitch experience directly.
What payment and returns terms should be negotiated with major retail distributors like Venus, and what leverage points exist?
Members report that major retail distributors typically insist on sale-or-return (SOR) terms and are inflexible—one member was told flatly that if they didn't accept Venus's SOR terms, the distributor simply wouldn't list them. Several members have accepted SOR with Venus and other major groups, though one warned that during market shocks (e.g. Covid), distributors may return stock and invoice unexpectedly. **Negotiation tactics:** - **Assess your leverage**: If you're supplying a high-profile flagship account or have significant volume, push back harder on SOR—distributors are more flexible with larger partners - **Propose partial payment structures**: Suggest a 50/50 split or graduated payment terms based on projected initial depot sales volume, rather than pure SOR - **Add shelf-life clauses**: Insert a condition that the distributor cannot return stock with less than X months remaining shelf life—this limits their ability to return aged inventory - **Understand the buyer mentality**: Distributors like Venus operate transactionally and "aren't in the business of making friends." Smaller operators buying to specific POs are less risky than large SOR commitments - **Accept SOR pragmatically**: If the distributor won't budge and the opportunity is valuable, SOR may be the cost of entry, though members note payment eventually arrives **Caveats**: SOR exposes you to return risk and timing uncertainty, especially during market downturns. Terms vary by distributor; smaller accounts may be safer bets than major chains.
Should you price bottles lower with lower retailer margins/listing fees, or higher with higher margins/listing fees?
Members consensus is strongly in favour of **higher bottle price with higher retailer margins and listing fees**. **Key reasons cited:** - **Pricing control** — higher prices give you more control over how your product is positioned and discounted in the market - **Higher GP%** — the higher margin protects your gross profit - **Downside protection** — if the product doesn't sell through as fast as forecast, you have more cushion to absorb slower movement without eroding profitability This approach is particularly important for craft spirits where market positioning and perceived value matter.
What is the best approach to securing and maintaining a retailer listing in the early stages on shelf?
Based on community experience, retailer launches require realistic expectations and proactive relationship management. **Key lessons from member experience:** - **Expect limited buyer responsiveness post-launch.** Members reported that after securing shelf space, communication with buyers can become difficult—one founder couldn't reach their buyer for nearly a year following a Sainsburys launch during lockdown. Buyers tend to have high workloads and slow response times despite the apparent simplicity of maintaining contact. - **Plan for early-stage support independently.** Rather than relying on retailer buyer engagement, members recommend developing your own launch plan to support the brand on shelf during the critical early period. This may include promotional activity, stock management, and point-of-sale support that doesn't depend on retailer responsiveness. - **Consider retailer selection carefully.** Launching in large national chains during volatile periods (e.g., lockdown) can amplify challenges. Timing and retailer choice matter significantly. **Caveats:** The community flagged that retailer buyer relationships are inconsistent and often frustratingly unresponsive even for basic communication. Members should plan contingency support and not assume ongoing collaboration from the retailer during the critical shelf period.
What are the typical listing fees charged by major UK spirit wholesalers, and how do they work?
Major UK wholesalers typically charge **£500 per depot** as a one-off listing fee, though this is negotiable. With approximately 9 depots across the UK network (York, Fosse, Birmingham, Orbital West, Runcorn, Southampton, Edinburgh, Glasgow, and Bedford/Crayford), you should expect around **£4,500–£5,000 total per SKU** to achieve widespread distribution. **Key points from community experience:** - The fee is a **one-off charge**, not annual, though negotiation success varies considerably between members - Members have paid **£5,000 per SKU** in past listings - The depot network includes approximately 9 locations: York, Fosse, Birmingham, Orbital West, Runcorn, Southampton, Edinburgh, Glasgow, and Bedford/Crayford - **Matthew Clarke** is noted as an alternative route for extended range listings (through Master of Malt), though listing doesn't guarantee wide availability—you may pay the fee but find the product only accessible to direct customers - **Master of Malt** has historically listed products readily but delisting for poor sales appears uncommon, even for smaller suppliers moving 20k+ per year **Caveats:** Getting listed is only half the battle; availability at individual depots can vary significantly even after you've paid the listing fee. Negotiation on fees is possible but outcomes differ between suppliers.
What's the best approach to migrate from WooCommerce to Shopify?
Members who have made the jump from WooCommerce to Shopify strongly recommend the move. The consensus is that **Shopify** is significantly easier to use and manage than WooCommerce. **Migration approach:** - **Build a new Shopify store from scratch** rather than attempting a direct migration — this is cleaner and allows you to set up properly - **Manually migrate key content** like SEO-related pages and product information - **Use off-the-shelf Shopify themes** that you can customise if you don't want to invest in custom coding — this accelerates launch - **Shopify's interface is very intuitive**, particularly if you're managing it yourself **Plan options:** - Members report being on various Shopify plans for small businesses, though specific plan recommendations aren't detailed in the discussion **Getting help:** Members have contacts who specialise in Shopify builds and can support the migration process — reach out via direct message if you'd like introductions. **Overall sentiment:** Multiple members described moving to Shopify as "the best thing we did." One member noted they went from Shopify to WooCommerce and then back to Shopify, reinforcing confidence in the platform.
Is it worth launching mini or sample-size bottles as a trial/sampling product, given packaging and distribution costs?
Mini bottles are **not a reliable profit driver** but can work in specific contexts if margins are managed carefully and customer acquisition costs justify the tactic. **Key findings from member experience:** - **5cl mini bottles** — Generally loss-making for direct consumer trial online; members tested them for CAC reduction without sufficient impact to justify the cost. However, they do drive sampling at a few pence per serve (vs £1+ per serve in other channels), which can be worthwhile tactically. - **20cl bottles** — The more viable size; some success with luxury hospitality (e.g. rum for hotel mini bars), though margins remain thin. - **Half-size (375ml) bottles** — Better margin than 5cl; work well for D2C as "handbag size" gifts and off-trade channels. Useful as a "gateway option." One member noted they've stocked half-sizes for years with good uptake in these channels. - **Gift packs (3–4 SKUs)** — More promising than individual minis; good for D2C and reducing customer trading-down from full bottles. - **In-person trial over online** — Members found direct tasting (in-store, face-to-face) consistently outperformed online mini-bottle drops for driving conversion and reducing CAC. **Caveats:** - **Never launch more than two size variants** — Member warned this becomes "absolutely lethal" operationally. - **Watch the channel** — Duty-free (e.g. airport) and big corporate buyers (e.g. Beams, Gift Creations) often demand 70% duty-free and 35% distributor margin, making minis a loss-leader; only worthwhile if trial/volume justifies it. - **Avoid cannibalisation** — One member deliberately avoids selling individual 5cl minis in their own shops to prevent customers trading down from 70cl bottles. - **Test before scaling** — If you can achieve low MOQ, it's worth testing; if manufacturing is a hassle, stick to selling the full-size bottle.
What is the process for getting listed with major UK retail chains like Majestic, Waitrose, and Ocado?
Getting listed with major UK retailers requires a multi-step approach combining direct contact with buyers and grassroots validation. **Key contacts and routes:** - **Majestic** — Direct buyer contact: jacob.biggs@majestic.co.uk (note: neither this contact nor john.storm@majestic.co.uk are consistently responsive) - **Waitrose and Ocado** — Community members have experience but were seeking to share learnings on specific routing; no single universal contact shared - **Mitchells & Butlers venues** — Use **Tradeteam** as their distributor (partly direct access) **Recommended tactic:** Members report success by getting a dozen individual store managers to taste the product and provide feedback, then following this up with the central buying team. This grassroots validation appears to carry weight in conversations with buyers. **Caveats:** Direct buyer emails are often unresponsive; the grassroots store-level feedback loop is the more reliable entry point. Getting listed is challenging and retention is not guaranteed—some community members have been listed for many years and subsequently delisted.
What margins do luxury department stores like Selfridges and Harrods typically expect from drinks suppliers?
Luxury department stores generally target **40–45% gross profit margins**, though this varies significantly by product category and proposition strength. **Direct experience from members:** - **Selfridges**: Members report margins of 35–40% depending on timing and volume. One member went direct in 2019 at 35%; another estimates their GP at 40%. Buyers may work via distributor relationships (e.g. **Hammonds**, **Diverse Fine Food**) as an alternative to direct. - **Harrods**: One member with direct experience targeted 42% but found **cash flow was the priority**—buyers were willing to drop to mid-20s margins if the product had strong pulling power and high perceived value. **By product type:** - **Wine**: Highly variable, ranging from 20% to over 80% depending on positioning and exclusivity. - **Spirits (whisky, vodka, brandy)**: Generally north of 45%, often above 50%. - **Lower price-point categories** (beer, tonics, soft mixers): Required 45%+ margins, mostly above 50%, to justify shelf space. **Key caveat**: Volume and cash position matter as much as margin percentage. Luxury retailers prioritise products that drive customer footfall; a compelling proposition can negotiate lower margins if it supports their overall strategy.
Should brands pay distributors for sales reports and listing data?
Members are split on whether distributor-charged reporting is fair, but consensus leans toward resistance for small brands. **The complaint:** Several distributors are now charging £100+/month for basic reports showing where products are listed—a meaningful margin hit for small producers with limited SKUs. Members questioned why brands should pay for data that helps distributors sell more product. **Why distributors claim they charge:** Some argue that pulling and sending individual sales reports to every brand is time-consuming and costs them thousands monthly. With thin margins (£2–5 per bottle), report generation isn't free. **What members actually do instead:** - **Maintain close relationships with reps or telesales staff.** They'll often pull reports and send listings informally without charging—this is the workaround small brands use. - **Big brands don't pay.** Members confirmed that major producers are handed this data as standard; they would refuse a charge. Small brands are being asked to pay what large players get free. - **Negotiate directly with individual contacts** rather than accepting the formal fee structure. **Caveat:** Members acknowledged that *some* distributors won't share data at all, citing confidentiality, making the fee-charging ones at least willing to engage. The underlying frustration is that the burden falls on small businesses while established brands get preferential treatment.
What are the most effective distribution channels and strategies for getting spirits into hotels?
Hotel distribution requires patience and relationship-building rather than reliance on purchased data. Members recommend a targeted approach focusing on boutique and smaller hotel groups rather than large chains, which have longer decision cycles. **Key strategies:** - **Boutique and independent hotels** — easier to approach than major chains; offer faster decision-making and partnership opportunities - **Mini-bar positioning** — mentioned as a specific opportunity if you have the right pack format (smaller bottles) - **Case studies and differentiation** — build social proof to encourage hotels to move away from standard offerings rather than competing on commodity products - **LinkedIn outreach** — useful for lead generation and initial contact, though members note it doesn't replace deeper relationship-building and industry knowledge exchange - **Trade shows** (Hotel Restaurant & Catering show mentioned) — can generate leads but note that contacts turn over quickly, particularly post-pandemic; worth attending but don't rely solely on aged contact lists **Caveats:** - Purchased sector databases are available but members warn that contact information becomes outdated rapidly, reducing ROI - Direct data purchasing may waste budget; relationship-building and case studies appear more effective - Major hotel chains require a longer sales process; smaller groups are more accessible for emerging brands Members actively share knowledge and leads on this topic—reaching out to the community directly is encouraged.
What is the cost of entry and key strategy for distributing spirits in the US market, and what should new entrants know about working with distributors?
US market entry requires significant upfront investment and hands-on brand representation—distributors will not actively sell your brand for you. Members emphasise that capital and dedicated personnel are essential; stock without active support will not turn. **Key takeaways:** - **Major retail channels** – Members report presence in Total Wine & More (confirmed) and Bevmo (in progress for some), but entry costs and terms vary. Natural grocery channels are notably expensive and require significant investment in sampling and TPRs (trade promotion resources). - **Brand representation is mandatory** – Do not rely on distributors to push your product; you must provide active brand support and sales resource in-market. - **Regional distributors** – Members have experience with Southern/RNDC (requesting contact and feedback); others are exploring additional distributor partners. - **Capital requirements are substantial** – Multiple members stressed that "it takes money to move" and that eye-watering costs are associated with US market entry. - **In-market support** – Happy to connect with members who have recent US launch experience for detailed learnings and strategy. **Caveats:** The excerpts confirm the challenge but do not provide specific cost figures, retail placement timelines, or detailed channel-by-channel breakdowns. Members are keen to share direct experience via DM.
What are the main distribution channels and partners that Mitchells & Butlers use to stock drinks products?
Mitchells & Butlers primarily use two routes to market: - **Tradeteam** — the main direct RTM channel. If M&B want to list you, they will typically set you up with Tradeteam directly as part of the process. - **Bibendum** — historically supplied M&B before Tradeteam became standard, though this may be less current. Worth exploring if direct routes aren't available. Members note that M&B sometimes proactively reach out to brands asking what RTMs they use, which can be a positive sign of interest. However, be prepared for slow response times and limited visibility into orders—one member joked the channel can feel like "shouting into the void." Getting listed is valuable but requires patience and clear communication through the established channels.
What are the best trade shows for breaking into travel retail distribution?
Travel retail trade shows are highly competitive and membership-gated, so entry and ROI are challenging. **TFWA Cannes** — The main player in the space, but typically requires you to already have duty-free presence to secure a stand. Getting a stand is "incredibly hard"; most smaller brands without existing distribution attend unofficially and conduct meetings at cafés along the seafront instead. **Casual Dining Show** — Members reported mixed results. 2019 was strong; 2021 was described as "pretty awful." One member managed to secure Hall and Woodhouse as a lead (their first and only qualified lead from the show), suggesting the rest were time-wasters. Consensus: "a bit of a lottery like most trade shows." **Caveats:** Travel retail shows are notoriously difficult for smaller brands to break into. Unless you already have duty-free distribution, expect to work the perimeter rather than secure formal exhibitor space. Lead quality can be poor, so budget accordingly and don't rely on a single show for channel entry.
Is selling spirits on Amazon FBA economically viable given fulfilment costs and retail pricing constraints?
Based on member experience, Amazon FBA for spirits is extremely challenging at standard UK retail price points. **The core problem:** fulfilment costs are prohibitive relative to achievable margins. One member reported selling Duppy White at £19.75 RRP, with a £16.45 ex-VAT wholesale cost, but facing £4.75 Amazon FBA fulfilment fees per unit — leaving approximately £0.50 profit per sale. This makes the economics unworkable at typical spirits pricing. Members exploring alternatives: - **Amazon Vendor Central (1P)** — appears to be a different model worth investigating, though members noted standard FBA (3P/Seller Central) doesn't work - **Direct distributor partnerships** — some members work with specialist retailers like **Fine Wine Cellars** rather than Amazon FBA - **Ankor Store** — mentioned as an alternative channel being evaluated by members, though no detailed feedback was shared on viability **Key caveat:** No member in this discussion reported successfully running a profitable spirits FBA operation at standard price points. If pursuing Amazon sales, a direct conversation with an Amazon Vendor Manager (rather than standard FBA) may open different margin structures, though members were still exploring this option at the time of discussion.
What should we negotiate in exclusive distribution agreements for Asian markets, and what provisions protect us?
Exclusive distribution agreements for Asian countries are common, but members strongly advise against signing unconditional long-term exclusivity without protections. Here's what the community recommends: **Key negotiation points:** - **Minimum performance clauses** — Build in lower performance thresholds than your agreed market plan; if the distributor doesn't hit these, you retain flexibility. - **Minimum order volumes and marketing spend** — Tie exclusivity to concrete commitments. If they hit agreed numbers, exclusivity makes sense; if not, let the best partner win. - **Break-out provisions** — Do not accept a 5-year exclusive deal with no exit clause. Always negotiate a way out if targets aren't met. - **Market-specific caution** — For large markets like China, members warn against granting exclusivity to a single distributor, as the market is too large for one partner to serve effectively. **Caveats:** - Members were unanimous in cautioning against unconditional exclusivity. One noted: "I would be very cautious signing anything for any market with unconditional exclusivity." - The community consensus is that tied performance goals create healthy competition and protect your interests better than blanket exclusivity. - Consider whether you genuinely expect substantial growth in that specific country over the 5-year term before committing.
What gross profit margins and pricing strategies should we use for export sales, and how do we calculate ex-duty pricing for new markets like Australia?
Members recommend keeping export prices within a 15% variance of UK bonded/ex-works pricing as a baseline framework. Here's what the community shared: **Export pricing approach:** - **15% variance rule** — Price ex-works export list price within 15% of your UK bonded pricing; this acts as an anchor point - **Domestic vs. export margin gap** — Export prices are typically lower than domestic to account for importer costs and avoid parallel trading concerns. Large brewers sometimes price higher to actively prevent parallel imports - **Ex-duty calculation** — Ex-duty pricing equals your cost of goods plus your desired markup; the importer/buyer then factors in transport, import duties, and their own margin. You don't need to include those costs in your quote - **Competitive benchmarking** — Ask the importer for pricing of competitor brands in their market; use those to guide your position - **Deals and A&P on top** — Any promotional support or marketing spend sits *above* the 15% variance band, not within it **Key caveats:** Members emphasised that margins vary significantly based on individual cost structures and desired markups, so the 15% rule is a guideline rather than law. One member noted that larger brands sometimes price *higher* on export to prevent parallel imports, so category and channel strategy matter. For a first export (like Australia), asking the importer for comparables is especially important to avoid leaving money on the table or pricing yourself out.
What are the best logistics and fulfilment options for getting products onto fast-delivery platforms like Getir, Zapp, and Weezy?
Members are actively listing on multiple quick-commerce platforms with varying success. Direct placement on **Getir** is generating strong volume for at least one member. **Zapp** and **Weezy** are also available, though some members note these platforms may source through traditional wholesalers like **Matthew Clark** rather than direct relationships, making volume harder to track. Members recommend treating these as complementary channels rather than relying on a single platform. **Key options members are using:** - **Getir** — direct listing generating "amazing volume" according to members - **Zapp** — available but may route through **Matthew Clark** - **Weezy** — similar to Zapp; wholesaler-mediated ordering - **Gorillas** and **Crisp** — European alternatives (members have experience in the Netherlands) **Next steps:** Members with experience across all major platforms suggest scheduling group calls to discuss detailed routes to market and specific placement strategies. Canned products appear to be the format gaining traction on these platforms.
Which drinks sales agencies specialize in sales-focused services rather than full distribution?
Members recommend several sales agencies that focus on sales representation rather than full distribution services: - **Amber Beverage** — recommended by members - **ESL** — recommended as a sales agency option - **E2M** — recommended by members - **TT Liquor** — members have contacts available; inquire within the group - **Nightcap Brands** — described as highly effective, with high recommendations from multiple members. One member noted they work with Nightcap's team and reported significant improvements to on-trade performance and exciting off-trade listings in the pipeline Members praised Nightcap Brands particularly for transforming on-trade presence and generating new distribution opportunities.
What are realistic sales volumes and ROI for RTD products in major UK grocery retailers like WH Smith?
RTD sales performance in major UK grocery retailers is challenging and heavily dependent on retailer terms. **WH Smith** is one of the most expensive entry points in the market: expect a £20–30k upfront investment in their marketing suite, with listing fees around £500 per store. Return on sales (ROS) is typically 6–8 cans per store per SKU per week in regular stores, though higher in travel locations (train stations, airports). Over a year, this translates to roughly 600 cans per store per SKU annually—a volume that few brands can profitably sustain at standard wholesale margins. Members report that WH Smith's alcohol licence expansion has been slow despite promises (one member noted only 35 of a promised 120 licences materialised). Several members have terminated WH Smith contracts after finding the marketing investment unrecoverable relative to sales. The general consensus is that only established brands with significant scale (e.g., MOTH) can make the unit economics work. **LCB offers EDI integration** if you proceed. Key caveat: one member advised "certainly not rushing back soon" after their WH Smith experience, citing the gap between promised and actual performance.
What are the key differences between getting listed on Ocado versus Waitrose, and what should I expect in terms of volume, costs, and online competition?
**Volume:** Ocado typically delivers around 1/10th the volume of Waitrose at full distribution, making Waitrose the significantly larger opportunity for most brands. **Joint Business Plans (JBPs):** Both retailers require JBPs for at least the first few months of stocking. These outline your investment in marketing support, PR, and social media activity, and cover promotional spend and margin maintenance. **Online Competition:** Both retailers bid on your brand terms in Google search auctions, which can drive up your PPC costs. This is particularly worth monitoring if you're primarily D2C—retailers like Ocado, Waitrose, and others (including Holland & Barrett, NOTHS) may compete with you for branded keywords, with the competitive landscape changing weekly. Members report this varies in impact; some haven't noticed significant problems while others track weekly changes in auction participation. **Caveats:** The discussion suggests online bidding behaviour is inconsistent and worth monitoring directly via PPC reports rather than assuming it will be a major issue. Specific discount structures and "pay-to-play" costs weren't detailed in the community feedback.
What's the best approach to choosing wholesalers and distributors for an independent spirits brand, and should strategy differ between different wholesaler types?
There is no truly 'proactive' wholesaler for indie spirits brands—even niche players like **Cotswold Fayre** work with huge catalogues and won't actively push your product. The key is to flip the strategy: base wholesaler listings on your target accounts (bars, restaurants, retailers where you think the brand fits), then drive demand yourself through your sales team to pull volume through the wholesaler. Don't rely on the wholesaler's sales force—their incentives and priorities favour larger suppliers. **Specific wholesalers mentioned:** - **Cotswold Fayre** — seen as indie-friendly but still requires you to generate demand; you may get some direct business luck but shouldn't expect proactive selling - **Enotria** — has reduced their range significantly and shifted away from being a composite supplier to focus on selective profitable growth. They have a changed account base since that pivot. **Critical caveat**: members reported they are "absolutely TERRIBLE" payers with a history of requiring close chasing. Work with them only on careful proforma terms or very managed arrangements to minimise supply disruption. - **Venus** (post-takeover) — members raised concerns that listing with them post-acquisition risks product being pushed into Tesco or Bookers without your control **Core principle:** Work backwards from the bar. Identify where your brand belongs, then ensure the wholesaler can supply that route. Opening up route-to-market via a wholesaler is helpful for availability, provided commercial terms work for you.
What margins do drinks distributors typically expect, and which distributors offer competitive rates?
Distributor margin expectations in the drinks industry typically range from 23–30%, with 23% appearing increasingly common. **Cotswold Fayre** and **Jumpstart** have both quoted 23% to members; one distributor quoted 30%. Members report that margin percentage alone isn't the deciding factor—distributor efficiency, responsiveness, and ease of working relationship matter significantly. Members who accepted 23% margins from **Cotswold Fayre** and worked with them from January onwards reported they were "much better to deal with and more efficient than others that have asked for more," making them "worth a punt." **Jumpstart** has also been described as "quite good" to work with. The consensus is to negotiate and compare not just on margin percentage but on operational support and reliability.
What are the impacts of Diageo's new wholesale policy requiring 30 designated wholesalers and £2m purchase thresholds for direct supply?
Diageo has implemented restrictive new wholesale rules that significantly reshape how independent retailers and smaller operators can access their products. The policy cuts direct supply access to only 30 approved wholesalers and requires cash-and-carry (C&C) customers to reach £2m in annual purchases (invoice value excluding VAT) to qualify for direct supply. **Key impacts:** - **Around 40 retailers lose direct access** — approximately 40 smaller wholesalers previously supplied directly by Diageo now must purchase Diageo products indirectly, often from their competitors, creating a significant market disruption and widespread upset in the trade. - **High purchase threshold barriers** — The £2m purchase requirement effectively excludes smaller independent retailers and venues from direct supply, forcing them into indirect channels. - **Concentration of power** — The policy limits distribution to only 30 designated wholesalers, reducing competition and potentially increasing margins across the supply chain. **Market observations:** Members noted this creates "a lot of upset in the trade" and flagged potential consequences: some traders are positioning themselves to exploit the disruption, and there's speculation that UK stock availability changes could create arbitrage opportunities at international borders. However, members also recognised potential opportunities emerging from the wholesale space upheaval for new entrants and alternative routes to market. **Note:** The community discussion did not provide a detailed list of the 40 affected wholesalers or the 30 approved ones.
What payment terms and listing fees do major UK drinks distributors like Matthew Clark offer?
Based on member experience with Matthew Clark, the typical payment terms are **60 days**. Members report that distributors also charge **a fairly chunky listing fee**, though the exact amount was not specified in the discussion. This appears to be standard across their accounts with the distributor. Key point: Members did not provide extensive detail on A&P (Advertising & Promotion) spend allocations or terms beyond payment windows in the available discussion.
What revenue or production threshold should define a 'small supplier' for platform pricing models?
Members discussed defining small suppliers for tiered pricing on platforms like EzTenda. The community suggested two practical thresholds: - **Under £1M annual revenue** — the most commonly cited benchmark for small supplier classification - **Under 1M litres per year** — specifically relevant for soft drinks producers, offering a volume-based alternative to revenue Members supported the idea of offering small supplier pricing tiers, though the excerpts don't detail the specific discounts or terms proposed. The choice between revenue and volume thresholds may depend on your product category and business model.
What margin do discount supermarkets like Lidl and Aldi typically offer compared to conventional supermarkets?
Discount supermarkets offer significantly lower margins than conventional supermarket channels. Members report: - **Lidl/Aldi margins**: typically 10–12% on spirits - **Conventional supermarkets**: usually 25%+ on standard products, rising to 30% on super-premium spirits - **Mixers**: notably tighter at 40–48% (members noted this with frustration) - **Ex-duty spirits**: may reach north of 50%, but this is category-dependent The consensus is that discount channels require accepting substantially lower margins (roughly half those of traditional supermarkets) in exchange for volume potential. One member noted they were checking feasibility ("just want to see if we can make it stack up"), suggesting profitability requires careful cost analysis before committing.
What should we expect when pitching products to major wholesale distributors, and what strategies work best for getting listings?
Getting wholesale distributor listings requires meeting high volume forecasts and persistence through a lengthy approval process. **Key requirements and expectations:** - Major national operators now demand immediate volume commitment — distributors view stock as cash and are focused on range rationalisation post-COVID - Expect minimum forecast requirements of 3–5 cases per week per SKU or per site, even for smaller initial listings; some high-profile operators have regional autonomy and still push back on these minimums - **Specialty** is known for requesting particularly high forecasts compared to other wholesalers - The approval process is lengthy — members report 2+ weeks of back-and-forth negotiation just to secure a 3-SKU listing - Even with strong credentials (e.g., 15 sites with 5+ cases minimum per week), distributors may still resist listing **Practical tactics:** - Members recommend doing significant leg work yourself rather than relying solely on distributors' internal processes — some have enlisted their accountants to handle sign-off and final calculations - Networking within the community can help: members share useful contacts via direct message - Be prepared for a protracted negotiation; one member noted "that was tough!" and it took considerable effort to eventually secure listings **Caveats:** Members emphasise that distributor relationships are competitive and unpredictable post-COVID. If a relationship sours, rebuilding trust takes time. The landscape remains volatile — members are watching whether R&D claim structure changes will shift wholesale pricing practices.
What are the current payment reliability and account strength of major wine and spirits distributors like Enotria and Venus after recent restructuring?
Payment reliability and account base strength vary significantly among major distributors post-restructuring. **Enotria** — Members consistently report serious payment issues. Feedback ranges from "need a lot of chasing" to "absolutely TERRIBLE TERRIBLE payers," and this has been a chronic issue for years. The distributor has undergone multiple restructurings and refinancing cycles. Their account base has changed substantially since they moved away from being a composite supplier, reducing their range and focusing on selective profitable growth. While still considered a valuable supplier by some, working with them requires careful management of terms to minimise supply disruption. Changes in ownership may improve the situation. **Venus** — Described as a reliable option with a solid account base. A Venus listing makes products available to Booker ontrade/catering channels (a positive), though it does not extend to Tesco, which operates entirely separate buying teams and does not migrate Venus products into their systems. **General approach** — Rather than relying on a distributor's team to sell your brand, members recommend basing any listing decision on your target accounts and working backwards from the bar. Distributors have competing priorities and incentives favour larger players, so expect to drive volume through your own sales activity. Opening up route to market is valuable subject to commercial terms.
What are the practical challenges and steps for getting a product listing with Marstons, especially after their Carlsberg merger?
Members report significant friction in securing Marstons listings, particularly since the Carlsberg merger. The core problem is a circular referral process with no clear owner. **The Marstons/CUK runaround:** Members describe being bounced between Marstons and Carlsberg UK (CUK)—Marstons directs you to CUK to handle the listing request, while CUK says Marstons needs to request the product. This creates a stalled process where neither party takes responsibility, and getting movement has proven difficult over months or years. **Local pub group angle:** One member noted that if your local pub group is tied to Marstons, you cannot get shelf space without a formal listing. Asking the pub group directly to connect you with their Marstons contact may help, but this depends on the relationship. **Contact recommendation:** Members mention **Helen at Hells Belles** as a useful contact for navigating this process, though specific details on her role were not provided in the discussion. **Caveats:** The post-Carlsberg merger appears to have made the process *worse*, not better. Multiple members have been stuck in the circular loop for "a couple of years" with no resolution. There is no clear workaround reported—persistence and a direct contact seem to be the only tactics mentioned.
What are typical MOQ (Minimum Order Quantity) requirements for direct distribution to major UK depots like LWC?
Based on member experience, direct depot MOQs are relatively modest and typically non-negotiable: - **LWC (Lay & Wheeler)** — standard MOQ is 10 cases direct to depot. Members report that attempting to negotiate this upward is difficult and unsuccessful. - **Master of Malt** — requires negotiation directly with the supplier; they typically expect 27–30% margin on trade pricing. Members note that while these minimums are achievable for most brands, trying to push for lower thresholds is unlikely to succeed. The depot model works best if you can meet their baseline requirements consistently.
What's the best way to set up automatic international shipping rate calculations for alcohol products on Shopify?
Members report that Shopify's built-in shipping settings can handle this without needing additional apps in many cases. The standard approach is to configure shipping zones and rates directly in Shopify's native shipping settings, selecting which countries to serve and what shipping price to charge per zone. **Recommended options:** - **Shopify native shipping zones & rates** — The usual route; configure countries and rates directly in settings. This was noted as working for at least one member who set it up previously, though one member noted this may have evolved. - **Advanced Shipping Rules app** — One member uses this, though they noted it was only tested for Northern Ireland, so international coverage is uncertain. - **Warmduscher** — Mentioned positively by a member as worth checking out. **Caveats:** One member questioned whether the enquiry was about alcoholic products, suggesting there may be additional compliance considerations for alcohol that weren't explored in the discussion. The discussion did not deeply cover alcohol-specific restrictions or shipping limitations by country.
Should drinks suppliers quote ex works or all-in pricing (including shipping) when selling to international distributors?
Members strongly recommend quoting **ex works pricing** to international distributors. This keeps suppliers focused on their core manufacturing business rather than logistics, and shifts the organisational burden to importers who are better positioned to handle it. Key principles: - **Quote ex works as your standard** — this is your baseline position and avoids you taking on logistics complexity - **Price list with ~15% variance acceptable** — some regional pricing adjustment is normal - **Be prepared to help occasionally** — in practice, you may end up assisting inexperienced or smaller importers with shipping arrangements to close deals, but this should be charged as an add-on on top of the ex works price, not built in - **Use pro forma invoices** — for at least the first 3 orders, then consider moving to formal payment terms (though this depends on importer size and reliability) The underlying logic: "We are in the manufacturing business not the logistics business" and "Let the importer do the legwork." As you grow, outsource non-core activities and focus on your brand edge and main skill.
How can drinks founders get Amazon customer service to respond when automated systems block account inquiries?
Amazon's customer service has become increasingly automated and difficult to reach. Members report that speaking to a human representative now requires hitting revenue thresholds, though these appear to move as you grow. **Revenue thresholds:** Members mention £250k and £500k annual turnover minimums mentioned by Amazon, though some report the goalposts shift upward once you reach each target. **Tactics that have worked:** - **All-caps application submissions** — One member had repeated rejections until they rewrote their application entirely in capital letters, which was then approved immediately. - **Repeated escalation requests** — Pre-2021, persistence and explicit requests to escalate to a manager eventually got results, though this may be less effective now. **Reality check:** Members are frustrated that despite doing £250k+ and £500k+ pa, they still cannot access a human account manager. The consensus is that Amazon's support infrastructure has degraded significantly and the revenue thresholds appear designed to be a moving target—you may never actually qualify.
What off-trade brokers and distribution partners do members recommend, and how should we evaluate them?
Members have limited but direct experience with off-trade brokers. When seeking reliable partners for distributor relationships, the community recommends: **Direct introductions** — Members actively facilitate introductions to distributors they work with. If you're looking for specific wholesaler contacts (e.g. LWC accounts), reach out directly to members who've already won those accounts; they can provide account contact swaps. **Regional specialists** — For Italian spirits distribution in Northern Italy, members recommend requesting direct introductions via DM rather than cold outreach; at least one member is actively working with Italian distributors and can facilitate connections. **Off-trade broker options** — **South East Bottling** is mentioned as a versatile option for ad hoc broker work. Members also reference **Andy Mallows at Mallows bottlers** as another contact for bottling and related services, though the exact scope of their broker/distribution services isn't detailed in these excerpts. **What to watch for** — One member warned against generic industry events (referencing a 2020 experience) where food buyers dominate and spirits decision-makers are rare and often already locked into long-term contracts, making them poor ROI for new brand acquisition efforts. The strongest signal from the community is that personal introductions and warm intros to established broker contacts are the most effective route; cold outreach to locked-in decision-makers is generally ineffective.
Where can founders find suitable Christmas and seasonal market stands?
Members recommend checking **Truman Brewery** in London, which hosts a Christmas bar and food market at the end of November. One member noted they received a sales deck for this event and could forward details, suggesting the organisers actively recruit vendors. This is a useful entry point for brands looking to test seasonal retail activation.
What is the experience of using Tipple as an alcohol distribution platform, and should we consider it?
Members have mixed and cautious experiences with Tipple as a distribution platform. **Tipple** offers good margins and reliable P&P to European markets, making it viable if you have sufficient demand. However, several significant concerns emerged: - **Operational challenges**: One member reported it consumed significant time and ultimately didn't work out due to poor setup and setup communication from Tipple's side; another found similar issues and advised caution, particularly early on. - **Distributor conflicts**: If you already have existing distributors in your market, Tipple can create complications and may not be worth pursuing. - **Compliance and liability concerns**: Members raised serious worries about whether taxes and duties are being paid correctly under local laws, and the risk that non-compliance could expose you legally. - **Alternative consideration**: Some members mentioned **BeMakers** as a more established alternative with a similar model (with reference to Arbikie using it), though feedback on BeMakers was also negative ("Not great at all"). **Caveats**: Tipple may have improved since some of these experiences. While Diageo is rumoured to use them, this is unconfirmed. The main risks centre on operational execution, legal/tax compliance, and potential conflicts with your existing distribution network. Members recommend speaking directly with those who have tried it before committing.